Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
"Sleep."
TNG defanged them the minute they put them to sleep.
"Sleep."
TNG defanged them the minute they put them to sleep.
Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy?
- Thread starter indolover
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Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
What the heck was that anyway? You can stop a group of cyborgs who, technically, don't need sleep by putting them to sleep? The whole collective? You can tap into the whole collective mind and just put them to sleep?
So... why didn't you tap into the whole collective mind, put them to sleep, find their weakest point, and destroy them?
What the heck was that anyway? You can stop a group of cyborgs who, technically, don't need sleep by putting them to sleep? The whole collective? You can tap into the whole collective mind and just put them to sleep?
So... why didn't you tap into the whole collective mind, put them to sleep, find their weakest point, and destroy them?
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
Data made the Collective onboard the single Cube think that it was time to regenerate and thus all the Borg on the ship went into their recharge alcoves. Since it wasn't, they instead overloaded their bodies while simultaneously draining the ship of all power and maintenance. They all exploded while the ship was too drained to repair itself leading to a massive self-destruct.
OR
The Greater Collective outside the ship realized what happened but couldn't revive the Borg onboard so they blew it up to keep the ship out of Fed hands.
Why didn't Data do it to all the Borg everywhere? Because that Cube was the only one in the vicinity, and the Borg DO adapt. They probably protected the "Sleep" command next time.
Data made the Collective onboard the single Cube think that it was time to regenerate and thus all the Borg on the ship went into their recharge alcoves. Since it wasn't, they instead overloaded their bodies while simultaneously draining the ship of all power and maintenance. They all exploded while the ship was too drained to repair itself leading to a massive self-destruct.
OR
The Greater Collective outside the ship realized what happened but couldn't revive the Borg onboard so they blew it up to keep the ship out of Fed hands.
Why didn't Data do it to all the Borg everywhere? Because that Cube was the only one in the vicinity, and the Borg DO adapt. They probably protected the "Sleep" command next time.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
On a Cube of over a thousand drones, they can defend the ship and stop Worf & Data? They didn't act they way on Voyager. They were firing on Voyager & assimilating Janeway and her team in "Unimatrix Zero". They couldn't stop Worf & Data from taking Locutus? They went through all the effort to get him and just let him go?
As far a a torpedo on a Borg vessel, "Dark Frontier" showed it's possable and that the Borg didn't know that tactic. Nobody in the DQ (but maybe the Voth) have the technology to go on the offensive against the Borg. It's probably why they're easy to beat to Janeway. Nobody has ever taken the fight to their door. They're not used to defending themselves, they've always been on the offensive.
On a Cube of over a thousand drones, they can defend the ship and stop Worf & Data? They didn't act they way on Voyager. They were firing on Voyager & assimilating Janeway and her team in "Unimatrix Zero". They couldn't stop Worf & Data from taking Locutus? They went through all the effort to get him and just let him go?
As far a a torpedo on a Borg vessel, "Dark Frontier" showed it's possable and that the Borg didn't know that tactic. Nobody in the DQ (but maybe the Voth) have the technology to go on the offensive against the Borg. It's probably why they're easy to beat to Janeway. Nobody has ever taken the fight to their door. They're not used to defending themselves, they've always been on the offensive.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
And no one would've really minded it if they had been ruined by TNG, because they were TNG's creation as well. ike how no one minded when DS9 removed the Dominion's major advantages because they were DS9's creation.
If VOY had been allowed to keep one of their own creations as the major enemy, and then eventually defanged THEM there wouldn't be hardly as many PO'ed folk.
Funny how no one minded the Peacekeepers chasing Moya in Farscape or the Cylons chasing the Galactica, but they can't stand the idea of VOY having an enemy they have to face all throughout THEIR show.
EDIT: The "beam a torpedo" tactic worked because it was a tiny Probe ship and not a Massive Cube.
And no one would've really minded it if they had been ruined by TNG, because they were TNG's creation as well. ike how no one minded when DS9 removed the Dominion's major advantages because they were DS9's creation.
If VOY had been allowed to keep one of their own creations as the major enemy, and then eventually defanged THEM there wouldn't be hardly as many PO'ed folk.
Funny how no one minded the Peacekeepers chasing Moya in Farscape or the Cylons chasing the Galactica, but they can't stand the idea of VOY having an enemy they have to face all throughout THEIR show.
EDIT: The "beam a torpedo" tactic worked because it was a tiny Probe ship and not a Massive Cube.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
The OP asked if we thought Voyager ruined the Borg, and my answer was no. I thought TNG ruined the Borg.
The examples you're giving are not relevant. Those series weren't franchises with multiple shows based in the same era going on, anyway.
It can be really hard to have something that is 'show specific' when you're working with a franchise that has multiple shows going on at the same time/time frame/era.
*waves hand in dismissive way*
I know what you're going to say. You're going to say Voyager had the potential to bring in new foes and not use the Borg at all.
You'd be right.
But, that's not what happened. When it was established that the Delta Quadrant was home base for the Borg, we all knew their presence was going to be heavy on Voyager.
I'm dealing with the concept of what actually did happen on the show based on the OP.
The OP asked if we thought Voyager ruined the Borg, and my answer was no. I thought TNG ruined the Borg.
The examples you're giving are not relevant. Those series weren't franchises with multiple shows based in the same era going on, anyway.
It can be really hard to have something that is 'show specific' when you're working with a franchise that has multiple shows going on at the same time/time frame/era.
*waves hand in dismissive way*
I know what you're going to say. You're going to say Voyager had the potential to bring in new foes and not use the Borg at all.
You'd be right.
But, that's not what happened. When it was established that the Delta Quadrant was home base for the Borg, we all knew their presence was going to be heavy on Voyager.
I'm dealing with the concept of what actually did happen on the show based on the OP.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
I think the Queen is an awesome concept to the Borg.
It makes what the Borg are kinda philosophical.
Like: It's now not are the Borg of one mind but who's one mind rules supreme?
If the Borg are billions upon billions of minds of different species, then who or what organizes them to make them all think the same thing? Who was the one that first created that idea within the collective? I think adding her makes the Borg far more complex. If the Borg were all of one mind without her to filler, then when one Cube used it's weapons, they'd all use their weapons. We know that's not true, something has to tell just that one Cube a command and the others not. It makes the Borg structure now like web, where the Queen is in the middle and the web is the lattus that connects her to the entire collective. That way she can send out commands to certain vessels along that lattace and not to others. Yet her mind still rules all, so they still are of one mind. It's just hers.
Well me personally, I disgree with him.
I think the Queen is an awesome concept to the Borg.
It makes what the Borg are kinda philosophical.
Like: It's now not are the Borg of one mind but who's one mind rules supreme?
If the Borg are billions upon billions of minds of different species, then who or what organizes them to make them all think the same thing? Who was the one that first created that idea within the collective? I think adding her makes the Borg far more complex. If the Borg were all of one mind without her to filler, then when one Cube used it's weapons, they'd all use their weapons. We know that's not true, something has to tell just that one Cube a command and the others not. It makes the Borg structure now like web, where the Queen is in the middle and the web is the lattus that connects her to the entire collective. That way she can send out commands to certain vessels along that lattace and not to others. Yet her mind still rules all, so they still are of one mind. It's just hers.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
I never liked the Queen concept for the Borg.
To think the Borg collective requires something to organize them and 'bring order to chaos' is thinking in such 'human terms'.
We do not know how a race like the Borg might have evolved and that a 'queen' of any kind is required for something like that to work.
Just because it's been observed in our nature under our rules, doesn't mean it can be applied to the whole galaxy automatically or even less so, to the universe.
I liked them much better in TNG as a collective without a queen.
Troi actually got it right back then:
Troi: 'We are not dealing with a single mind. They do not have a single leader'.
Picard: 'Yes a single leader is bound to make mistakes, which doesn't have a lot of prospect happening in a collective of minds'.
That right there was why the Borg were interesting.
After the writers gave the Borg a Queen, they started exhibiting human-like qualities.
The Queen was making mistakes a lot of the times.
As for Voyager ruining the Borg ...
No ...
The Borg became more familiar to SF by the time Voyager ended up in the D.Q.
And Voyager crew knew they would run into them at one point or the other.
Over time, as we also got more Borg stories, they became more familiar but not really less threatening.
Most of the times, Voyager barely got out of most situations with the Borg.
As for Endgame ... from a canonical point of view, we know the following things happened:
Unimatrix 01 ended up destroyed.
The TW hub in the Delta Quadrant also ended up destroyed, but that particular hub connected to other 5 or 6 hubs in the galaxy.
The crew specifically devised a plan to cripple Borg's capability to deploy ships throughout the galaxy and save millions of lives.
Per canon, and 7's own statement and I quote: 'The TW network has been obliterated'.
The TW network implies all TW hubs and corridors the Borg artificially set up.
Yes, a neurolithic pathogen was also introduced into the collective at it's central point by the Queen herself, which ended up in destruction of Unimatrix 01 as I previously said.
The Collective ended up with chaos as far as their neural link is concerned, and with the central unimatrix destroyed, one would think they would find rebuilding possible, but also difficult, because their initial link and coordination was severely messed up.
Although I doubt they were entirely destroyed either by this act.
They will have to rebuild the TW network which might take some time, or they will adapt and search for alternative methods to travel at faster than Warp velocities and assimilate knowledge that will help them rebuild.
As for non-canonical events ... we know from the Destiny trilogy that the Borg are no longer a threat to anyone.
They don't exist any-more because they were absorbed into the gestalt and turned into Caeliar.
I think the novels exhibited an interesting turn of events by ridding the Galaxy of the Borg.
However, that doesn't mean the Milky Way (or other galaxies) doesn't harbour any other races that might be very dangerous, if not even more so than the Borg.
I never liked the Queen concept for the Borg.
To think the Borg collective requires something to organize them and 'bring order to chaos' is thinking in such 'human terms'.
We do not know how a race like the Borg might have evolved and that a 'queen' of any kind is required for something like that to work.
Just because it's been observed in our nature under our rules, doesn't mean it can be applied to the whole galaxy automatically or even less so, to the universe.
I liked them much better in TNG as a collective without a queen.
Troi actually got it right back then:
Troi: 'We are not dealing with a single mind. They do not have a single leader'.
Picard: 'Yes a single leader is bound to make mistakes, which doesn't have a lot of prospect happening in a collective of minds'.
That right there was why the Borg were interesting.
After the writers gave the Borg a Queen, they started exhibiting human-like qualities.
The Queen was making mistakes a lot of the times.
As for Voyager ruining the Borg ...
No ...
The Borg became more familiar to SF by the time Voyager ended up in the D.Q.
And Voyager crew knew they would run into them at one point or the other.
Over time, as we also got more Borg stories, they became more familiar but not really less threatening.
Most of the times, Voyager barely got out of most situations with the Borg.
As for Endgame ... from a canonical point of view, we know the following things happened:
Unimatrix 01 ended up destroyed.
The TW hub in the Delta Quadrant also ended up destroyed, but that particular hub connected to other 5 or 6 hubs in the galaxy.
The crew specifically devised a plan to cripple Borg's capability to deploy ships throughout the galaxy and save millions of lives.
Per canon, and 7's own statement and I quote: 'The TW network has been obliterated'.
The TW network implies all TW hubs and corridors the Borg artificially set up.
Yes, a neurolithic pathogen was also introduced into the collective at it's central point by the Queen herself, which ended up in destruction of Unimatrix 01 as I previously said.
The Collective ended up with chaos as far as their neural link is concerned, and with the central unimatrix destroyed, one would think they would find rebuilding possible, but also difficult, because their initial link and coordination was severely messed up.
Although I doubt they were entirely destroyed either by this act.
They will have to rebuild the TW network which might take some time, or they will adapt and search for alternative methods to travel at faster than Warp velocities and assimilate knowledge that will help them rebuild.
As for non-canonical events ... we know from the Destiny trilogy that the Borg are no longer a threat to anyone.
They don't exist any-more because they were absorbed into the gestalt and turned into Caeliar.
I think the novels exhibited an interesting turn of events by ridding the Galaxy of the Borg.
However, that doesn't mean the Milky Way (or other galaxies) doesn't harbour any other races that might be very dangerous, if not even more so than the Borg.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
Yes you're right, the Queen does make mistakes. If she were perfect, the Borg still wouldn't seek it. If you view the Queen as a flaw in perfection, then maybe that's the point?
Didn't TNG already have an ep. where all humaniod life in the universe all shared the same genetic markers? So we where already bound to human terms.
Yes you're right, the Queen does make mistakes. If she were perfect, the Borg still wouldn't seek it. If you view the Queen as a flaw in perfection, then maybe that's the point?
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
^The Chase is the episode you're thinking of.
^The Chase is the episode you're thinking of.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
I had totally forgotten Hugh! But now that you reminded me of him - yeah; definitely not a good call all things considered.
And I totally agree with your point that once the mystery is gone, the superior villain ain't that interesting or scary anymore. Same happened for me in Battlestar Galactica with the Cylons. Therefore, the first two seasons of that particular show were the best ones for me.
That was pretty ridiculous as well. Lol. So yes - it's not just Voyager to blame. TNG most definitely did its share.
I had totally forgotten Hugh! But now that you reminded me of him - yeah; definitely not a good call all things considered.
And I totally agree with your point that once the mystery is gone, the superior villain ain't that interesting or scary anymore. Same happened for me in Battlestar Galactica with the Cylons. Therefore, the first two seasons of that particular show were the best ones for me.
That was pretty ridiculous as well. Lol. So yes - it's not just Voyager to blame. TNG most definitely did its share.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
The Borg were ruined the day Voyager had a Borg Crewmember that we saw every episode. Klingons became much less dangerous, in general of course when Worf was created.
Seven of Nine showed us how Borg Technology worked, what the collective was like, and on and on and on.
And they were permitted to be "Aliens of the week" BIG mistake. Borg stories on TNG were events. Borg episodes for Voyager were your normal eps and events... can't have it both ways.
The Borg were ruined the day Voyager had a Borg Crewmember that we saw every episode. Klingons became much less dangerous, in general of course when Worf was created.
Seven of Nine showed us how Borg Technology worked, what the collective was like, and on and on and on.
And they were permitted to be "Aliens of the week" BIG mistake. Borg stories on TNG were events. Borg episodes for Voyager were your normal eps and events... can't have it both ways.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
The Chase episode as funny as it was to watch was a bit of a cop-out in explaining why most races looked like humans.
Still, that doesn't really bind you to the 'human' point of view.
Humans were just one of the aberrations of those genetic traits, and each race developed it's own rules and regulations (which made it even more so a bit idiotic that a totally alien race would have a concept of 'marriage' or multitude other terms that we use in this day and age).
The Borg on the other hand were a whole different can of worms.
Their entire way of thinking and technology was unlike anything the Feds encountered before, and the very concept of the queen would not seem logical from a Borg point of view.
Why would the Borg make themselves imperfect exactly?
To better understand the Human race?
I doubt they did something like that for other races.
The Chase episode as funny as it was to watch was a bit of a cop-out in explaining why most races looked like humans.
Still, that doesn't really bind you to the 'human' point of view.
Humans were just one of the aberrations of those genetic traits, and each race developed it's own rules and regulations (which made it even more so a bit idiotic that a totally alien race would have a concept of 'marriage' or multitude other terms that we use in this day and age).
The Borg on the other hand were a whole different can of worms.
Their entire way of thinking and technology was unlike anything the Feds encountered before, and the very concept of the queen would not seem logical from a Borg point of view.
Why would the Borg make themselves imperfect exactly?
To better understand the Human race?
I doubt they did something like that for other races.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
By that logic, TOS fans should blame TNG for ruining the Klingons, by having a full blooded Klingon bridge STARFLEET officer. I loved TOS, but I also loved seeing how things could change/evolve in the 24th century Star Fleet culture.
Good explanation, but I don't buy it. The fact that the big and powerful BORG never came back and whipped J L Picard's Enterprising arse immediately tells me that they AREN'T unbeatable. If they were, they would have just sent another 1-2-3 cubes back to Earth with (as mentioned above) all "sleep" subroutines disabled.
What were the BORG afraid of? Us? They wiped the floor with us at Wolf 359 and nearly conquered Earth itself. The only reason they lost was because their Military liason with Starfleet Captain Picard, ratted them out. Now that the BORG have his memories and tactics logged into their database, they don't even need to expose themselves to that treachery.
No, the infrequency of the BORG presence, especially when given the tantalzing prospect of assimilating many new and superior technolgical/tactical minds should have drawn them back to Earth like a moth to a flame.
By that logic, TOS fans should blame TNG for ruining the Klingons, by having a full blooded Klingon bridge STARFLEET officer. I loved TOS, but I also loved seeing how things could change/evolve in the 24th century Star Fleet culture.
Good explanation, but I don't buy it. The fact that the big and powerful BORG never came back and whipped J L Picard's Enterprising arse immediately tells me that they AREN'T unbeatable. If they were, they would have just sent another 1-2-3 cubes back to Earth with (as mentioned above) all "sleep" subroutines disabled.
What were the BORG afraid of? Us? They wiped the floor with us at Wolf 359 and nearly conquered Earth itself. The only reason they lost was because their Military liason with Starfleet Captain Picard, ratted them out. Now that the BORG have his memories and tactics logged into their database, they don't even need to expose themselves to that treachery.
No, the infrequency of the BORG presence, especially when given the tantalzing prospect of assimilating many new and superior technolgical/tactical minds should have drawn them back to Earth like a moth to a flame.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
What??
The answer should be simple, nothing in the universe is.
That's why the Borg like the Federation strive to improve themselves. You know like that speech Picard keeps giving that's become Treks new motto.
The Borg are nothing new, they're the equal and opposite of the Federation. They wanted us to identify with that, not something totally unrelateable.
I don't find "The Chase" a cop out either if you understand the concept that regardless of differences, people are the same the world over. That's a very human point of view.
What??
The answer should be simple, nothing in the universe is.
That's why the Borg like the Federation strive to improve themselves. You know like that speech Picard keeps giving that's become Treks new motto.
The Borg are nothing new, they're the equal and opposite of the Federation. They wanted us to identify with that, not something totally unrelateable.
I don't find "The Chase" a cop out either if you understand the concept that regardless of differences, people are the same the world over. That's a very human point of view.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
But the Borg strive for perfection.
Imperfections are weeded out immediately (as shown on-screen).
I personally look at the queen as something the collective might have put in place temporarily in order to better deal with humanity.
However, there's another theory of mine that states how it's possible for the Borg to ditch the Queen entirely after the 'Endgame' events in order to go back to how they were before (novels not withstanding).
People are NOT the same all over the world really.
You have cultures that fundamentally differ from our own on this very planet.
To think an alien race would be so human-like is nothing short but arrogant and idiotic really.
Some similarities are fine, but also I was very disappointed how numerous 'moral aspects' and traditions which are very human like carried over to a lot of the alien races.
The Borg are not the equal to the Federation.
They are technologically superior to the Federation in virtually every way, and their way of thinking is highly methodical, analytical, precise, efficient and downright powerful.
No clouding based on individual interpretations or silly aspects like 'beliefs'.
The Borg were initially portrayed as WAY beyond such notions (but also were toned down a lot because of the premise the enemies are supposed to be types of people who you can connect with).
The way the writers handled things on numerous occasions, I had issues with.
This wasn't Voyager's fault on it's own.
It merely went on from what came of other production teams.
But the Borg strive for perfection.
Imperfections are weeded out immediately (as shown on-screen).
I personally look at the queen as something the collective might have put in place temporarily in order to better deal with humanity.
However, there's another theory of mine that states how it's possible for the Borg to ditch the Queen entirely after the 'Endgame' events in order to go back to how they were before (novels not withstanding).
People are NOT the same all over the world really.
You have cultures that fundamentally differ from our own on this very planet.
To think an alien race would be so human-like is nothing short but arrogant and idiotic really.
Some similarities are fine, but also I was very disappointed how numerous 'moral aspects' and traditions which are very human like carried over to a lot of the alien races.
The Borg are not the equal to the Federation.
They are technologically superior to the Federation in virtually every way, and their way of thinking is highly methodical, analytical, precise, efficient and downright powerful.
No clouding based on individual interpretations or silly aspects like 'beliefs'.
The Borg were initially portrayed as WAY beyond such notions (but also were toned down a lot because of the premise the enemies are supposed to be types of people who you can connect with).
The way the writers handled things on numerous occasions, I had issues with.
This wasn't Voyager's fault on it's own.
It merely went on from what came of other production teams.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
There's no United Federation of Planets without what you've described.
BTW, your description of the Borg sounds allot like republicans too me.
Too strive for: means you're trying to achieve a goal.
The Borg strive for perfection because they still aren't so.
So why do you watch Trek exactly?
There's no United Federation of Planets without what you've described.
BTW, your description of the Borg sounds allot like republicans too me.
Too strive for: means you're trying to achieve a goal.
The Borg strive for perfection because they still aren't so.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
I watch Trek because I find it enjoyable to watch (although that doesn't prevent me from noticing it's numerous flaws).
As for the UFP ... on the contrary, there are alien races in it which are very different in contrast to Humans.
Republicans? Borg?
Please ...
They may be striving for perfection, but they always also seek out imperfections and eliminate them.
The queen was a total imperfection/failure if you ask me.
Just look at what happened to the Collective ever since she came to light.
In early TNG up to BOBW, they were more like a force of nature. Later TNG changed this, and of course by introducing the Queen in FC, they messed things up.
I think one of the reasons Voyager's Scorpion episode works for me is because the Borg showed no Queen.
Although, even then they were dumbed down just enough so there would be a reason why Voyager would survive.
I watch Trek because I find it enjoyable to watch (although that doesn't prevent me from noticing it's numerous flaws).
As for the UFP ... on the contrary, there are alien races in it which are very different in contrast to Humans.
Republicans? Borg?
Please ...
They may be striving for perfection, but they always also seek out imperfections and eliminate them.
The queen was a total imperfection/failure if you ask me.
Just look at what happened to the Collective ever since she came to light.
In early TNG up to BOBW, they were more like a force of nature. Later TNG changed this, and of course by introducing the Queen in FC, they messed things up.
I think one of the reasons Voyager's Scorpion episode works for me is because the Borg showed no Queen.
Although, even then they were dumbed down just enough so there would be a reason why Voyager would survive.
Re: Do you accept that Voyager "killed" the Borg as a major Trek enemy
1. I don't accept that the Borg are "dead" as a Trek enemy.
2. If the Borg are "dead" as a Trek enemy, that deed was accomplished by the TNG episode "I, Borg". Voyager simply worked with what was already in existence.
This of course leaves aside the argument that a truly invincible enemy makes for pretty dull TV in the first place (IMO, anyway)...but that's another issue altogether and not germane to this thread.
No. Two reasons:
1. I don't accept that the Borg are "dead" as a Trek enemy.
2. If the Borg are "dead" as a Trek enemy, that deed was accomplished by the TNG episode "I, Borg". Voyager simply worked with what was already in existence.
This of course leaves aside the argument that a truly invincible enemy makes for pretty dull TV in the first place (IMO, anyway)...but that's another issue altogether and not germane to this thread.
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