Do we hate Harry Potter and Twilight?

[JustKate]

No, no - not that "mystery" (although I guessed that, too, even though I am not particularly familiar with feminine spirituality circles - I more or less know what the term "feminine spirituality circles" refers to, but I don't read their literature or anything). The mystery I was referring to was whodunit.

Sorry if this is considered thread-jacking but just guessing the whodunit in a whodunit doesn't mean that the book is no good. eg. I have guessed the whodunit in a few books (some Agatha Christie too - but never guessed in The Murder of Roger Ackroyd! I wonder whether anybody has?) including Dan Brown's latest - both questions - who is the bad guy and also the location of the mystery. But that isn't really the point of the book - the point of the book is to make high-grade addictive page-turning "pulp".

No, I agree that guessing whodunit doesn't automatically spoil a mystery book. However, for me, Brown's book (I've only read one) didn't work as an addictive page-turner either. I found it booooooOOOoooOOrrrrring. The only reasons I finished it were because I'm a bit anal that way, plus the fact that I wanted find out if I'd guessed right. That's why I haven't tried another. Life's too short, you know?

The fact that I guessed whodunit so quickly was just one disappointment in the long series of disappointments that was that silly book.

I agree with you on Roger Ackroyd - what a stunner!

To drag myself back OT, I think the Harry Potter books, while not great literature, are far better written than Twilight, but I admit that I am judging the latter only from the couple of chapters that I forced myself to read. Maybe that's not a fair sample plot-wise, but it is as far as writing quality. Aside from that, I just think the world they create is...kinda boring. But then, I'm not in the target audience.

 

[23skidoo]

Harry Potter is the same fucking story written 7 times.

You are aware that it's just one single story, right?

I'm not being completely sarcastic. Not everyone realized the three Lord of the Rings films told a single story. Or that Quantum of Solace was a continuation of the storyline begun in Casino Royale. As such when films like QoS and Two Towers came out there were people complaining about it being "the same f--ing story" too. Not realizing it was one story. In the case of Harry Potter, this is particularly true. Neither the Half-Blood Prince film nor the book are standalones, and if you aren't familiar with the previous novels or films there is honestly no point in watching the Deathly Hallows.

Alex

 

[Thrall]

Harry Potter is the same fucking story written 7 times.

You are aware that it's just one single story, right?

I'm not being completely sarcastic. Not everyone realized the three Lord of the Rings films told a single story. Or that Quantum of Solace was a continuation of the storyline begun in Casino Royale. As such when films like QoS and Two Towers came out there were people complaining about it being "the same f--ing story" too. Not realizing it was one story. In the case of Harry Potter, this is particularly true. Neither the Half-Blood Prince film nor the book are standalones, and if you aren't familiar with the previous novels or films there is honestly no point in watching the Deathly Hallows.

Alex

All of her books follow the same formula. They arrive at school. Harry and his pals get in mischief and lots of weird crap happens with their wacky adventures. They discover some mystery or plot and try and unravel it. Then have a big fight with Lord Voldermort or one of his posse. The end.

Again I say, it's the same fucking book written 7 times.

 

[RoJoHen]

All of her books follow the same formula. They arrive at school. Harry and his pals get in mischief and lots of weird crap happens with their wacky adventures. They discover some mystery or plot and try and unravel it. Then have a big fight with Lord Voldermort or one of his posse. The end.

Again I say, it's the same fucking book written 7 times.

I have not read the books, but based on the movies, I definitely agree with this. I don't think it's a problem, though. It's not like they're getting into the SAME mischief or having the SAME weird crap happen every time, and usually the fight with Lord Voldemort at the end gives us a little more insight into what's really going on.

I also think it makes watching them easier. You can watch any of them without really needing to have seen the previous installments. I love the movies.

 

[Kelthaz]

Harry Potter is the same fucking story written 7 times.

You are aware that it's just one single story, right?

I'm not being completely sarcastic. Not everyone realized the three Lord of the Rings films told a single story. Or that Quantum of Solace was a continuation of the storyline begun in Casino Royale. As such when films like QoS and Two Towers came out there were people complaining about it being "the same f--ing story" too. Not realizing it was one story. In the case of Harry Potter, this is particularly true. Neither the Half-Blood Prince film nor the book are standalones, and if you aren't familiar with the previous novels or films there is honestly no point in watching the Deathly Hallows.

Alex

No, he's right. I love the Harry Potter books -- well except for Death Hallows -- but they are repetitive. It's basically an episode of Scooby Doo played out over a school year and ending with some exposition from Dumbledore. Even killing Dumbledore off wasn't enough to change the formula. It's more noticable in the first two books, but the strict formula is there in all seven of them.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^You could say the same for virtually any series, any story, they all follow the same formula. Beginning, Middle, End. Story begins, some shit happens that makes it more complicated than it first seemed, protagonist discovers what has been eluding them thus far and the story resolves.

 

[Blamo]

The Buffy/Angel thing had it's issues but even then Buffy was just as much in control as he was. Still creepy now I look back on it.

As for Star Wars, while Han was the "bad boy" the relationship he had with Leia felt pretty healthy to me. Neither one eclipsed the other and both felt like they had control over their own lives (well apart from the times their both captured).

Can we see more Harry Potter hate, actually?

I think it's overrated certainly, but it's not bad.

Any brave souls willing to offer the notion Harry Potter is misogynistic?

From the movies I've seen I really can't see any.

The closest thing I've seen that might be considered a sort of misogynism is that Lilly(the woman who is pretty much looked up to) fell for James Potter, who was a bit of a jerk from what people are telling me. However that's pretty easy to dismiss because she believed he had changed his ways.

 

[Kelthaz]

^You could say the same for virtually any series, any story, they all follow the same formula. Beginning, Middle, End. Story begins, some shit happens that makes it more complicated than it first seemed, protagonist discovers what has been eluding them thus far and the story resolves.

Yeah, you can in other stories too, but Harry Potter was extreme.

1. Summer of Hell with the Dursleys
2. Harry goes back to school in a new mode of transportation
3. Harry discovers a mystery related to Voldermort
4. Harry plays Quidditch (and wins)
5. Harry and friends figure out the mystery just before finals
6. Harry stops Voldermort's plan
7. Dumbledore explains away the plot holes
8. Go to step 1

I'm not saying it didn't work well, but the books were extremely formulaic.

 

[RoJoHen]

1. Summer of Hell with the Dursleys

Speaking of which, and maybe I just don't remember from the movies, but was it explained why Harry didn't go off to live with Sirius at the end of Azkaban like they talked about?

 

[Smiley]

The movies are silent on that point, but there's some magical protection related to staying with his blood relatives.

 

[cubbie]

I only watched/read Harry Potter for Snape. I couldn't give a damn about the tweens. I do think the books are better than the movies.

As to Twilight, I only saw the first movie and only because of the huge hype surrounding it. I thought it was incredibly stupid. However, my entertainment value for Twilight has exponentially increased reading a satire of Twilight.

KRISTEN STEWART
Wait, we can't have sex at all, and you can't suck my blood? How can you make a vampire movie without anyone sucking blood?
ROBERT PATTINSON
It's alright, I think this movie already has more than enough sucking.

or

KRISTEN STEWART
Me? Oh, no. I'm just a hollow placeholder for all of the teenage girls in the audience to project their personalities onto. I have none of my own whatsoever.
NIKKI REED
Oh. Well what do you like to do for fun?
KRISTEN STEWART
Mostly smoke pot on my porch in front of the paparazzi. What about you guys?
PETER FACINELLI
Vampire baseball.
KRISTEN STEWART
Ha ha, no seriously.
PETER FACINELLI
Really. Vampire baseball. We even have uniforms. Want to come watch us play?

From what I've read New Moon is even worse than Twilight.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Does Star Wars need to have prominent female characters in order to appeal to women? Is Casablanca any less of a movie becuase Ric is the dynamic character instead of Ilsa?

For that matter, if gender representation is all that is needed, there are far more prominent men in Twilight than there are prominent women in Star Wars. So shouldn't Twilight have more crossover appeal?

And what about all those women who love Harry Potter? That story is a boy hero's journey. What's in it for the ladies?

Well, let me put it to you this way - how many stories do you love where you identify strongly with a female character or protagonist? Name me a few great movies, tv shows and films loved by you and/ or other guys where most of the characters are females, or even just the main character(s) are female.

All of her books follow the same formula. They arrive at school. Harry and his pals get in mischief and lots of weird crap happens with their wacky adventures. They discover some mystery or plot and try and unravel it. Then have a big fight with Lord Voldermort or one of his posse. The end.

Heh, by about book three I was wondering why everyone didn't look at each other come April and say - time to get the hell out of Hogwarts because Voldemort should be here any second now...

 

[Trent Roman]

Well, let me put it to you this way - how many stories do you love where you identify strongly with a female character or protagonist? Name me a few great movies, tv shows and films loved by you and/ or other guys where most of the characters are females, or even just the main character(s) are female.

Some of mine would include Alien series, Buffy, Dollhouse, Resident Evil, Terminator/Sarah Connor Chronicles, Tomb Raider and Underworld. Other guys have liked Alias and Xena, though I could never get into them.

There's a catch-22, though, even beyond the fact that these lists are bound to be shorter than their male counterparts, and all that studio nonsense about no action films with female protagonists, confusing the reaction to terrible films like Electra and Ultraviolet as a gendered reaction (and I expect that fans of those are still most likely to be guys). Males often pick up flak for enjoying series with female protagonists from females on the basis that it is only for the sexuality, or sexualization, of the female lead; which, even if that's part of the equation (though obviously not all; if that was the case for anybody, why wouldn't they just watch porn?) is somehow 'wrong', and acting in bad faith towards the opposite gender. If both genders are going to malign efforts at incorporating women into more proactive roles into these types of stories, then it's no surprise we have so little.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Kelthaz]

Does Star Wars need to have prominent female characters in order to appeal to women? Is Casablanca any less of a movie becuase Ric is the dynamic character instead of Ilsa?

For that matter, if gender representation is all that is needed, there are far more prominent men in Twilight than there are prominent women in Star Wars. So shouldn't Twilight have more crossover appeal?

And what about all those women who love Harry Potter? That story is a boy hero's journey. What's in it for the ladies?

Well, let me put it to you this way - how many stories do you love where you identify strongly with a female character or protagonist? Name me a few great movies, tv shows and films loved by you and/ or other guys where most of the characters are females, or even just the main character(s) are female.

I thought Trent Roman did a good job with his explanation, but let me throw in a few more.

Xena: Warrior Princess
Sailor Moon
Spirited Away
Nausicia: Valley of the Wind
W.I.T.C.H
Maude
Sarah Jane Adventures
The Little Mermaid
The Secret of NIMH

There aren't many good shows that men enjoy where the females are the lead characters, but it has nothing to do with them being female. When there is a well written female character as the lead, such as Ellen Ripley or Sarah Connor, guys haves no trouble identifying with her.

 

[Kegg]

There's a catch-22, though, even beyond the fact that these lists are bound to be shorter than their male counterparts, and all that studio nonsense about no action films with female protagonists,

In fairness, Lapis didn't say female action heroes, or even female protagonists in fantasy... just female protagonists. There are certainly enough of those for someone to compose a list of favourites, if they had any.

I am surprised at the relative absence of action films with starring empowered female protagonists, in all honesty. It is something that allows people to give us assertive female characters while at the same time fetishizing them as badass sex toys, which Whedon's basically made a career out of on TV. Why doesn't that formula work on the big screen?

Well, let me put it to you this way - how many stories do you love where you identify strongly with a female character or protagonist?

Bette Davis rather frequently. All About Eve is one of my favourite films ever for partly that reason (though to be fair, if I identify with Margot Channing, I want to be Addison DeWitt), and I never cried as openly as I did at The Old Maid, which still astonishes me as it's a rather straightforward melodrama. My god does she sell that moment when, alone and old, she imagines how she wants to talk to her daughter. Generally, through, there's something about the dry, brittle wit Davis can bring to her roles that I always find relatable. What does that say about me? Something rather ugly, I'm sure.

TV is slimmer pickings because I watch so comparatively little TV, and yes, what I do watch tends to have male protagonists.

 

[Trent Roman]

In fairness, Lapis didn't say female action heroes, or even female protagonists in fantasy... just female protagonists. There are certainly enough of those for someone to compose a list of favourites, if they had any.

Oh. I figured since we were talking about Harry Potter/Star Wars, we were looking for generic cognates. (Although, honestly, genre and to a lesser extent action tend to be most of what I watch.)

And I forgot to mention Fringe. Does V qualify, I wonder? Lead protagonist and antagonist are women, but I haven't quite decided whether I like V...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Well, let me put it to you this way - how many stories do you love where you identify strongly with a female character or protagonist? Name me a few great movies, tv shows and films loved by you and/ or other guys where most of the characters are females, or even just the main character(s) are female.

Some of mine would include Alien series, Buffy, Dollhouse, Resident Evil, Terminator/Sarah Connor Chronicles, Tomb Raider and Underworld. Other guys have liked Alias and Xena, though I could never get into them.

Fair enough - want to hear my list of stories I love with male protagonists and mostly male characters?

Star Trek, Star Trek: TNG, Star Trek: DS9 (though there's a stronger female to male ensemble in this than any other ST), Forbidden Planet, Deadwood, Casablanca, Maltese Falcon, Blade Runner, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Planet of the Apes, ET, The Matrix, Jurassic Park, Clockwork Orange, Back to the Future, Children of Men, A Boy and his Dog, Moon, Highlander, Dune, Stranger in a Strange Land, Farenheit 451, Brave New World, Taxi Driver, Good Fellas, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Slaughterhouse Five, War of the Worlds, The Time Machine, Flowers for Algernon, Frankenstein, The Lathe of Heaven, Lord of the Rings, Watership Down (okay they're rabbits - but they're male rabbits), The Plague, The Great Gatsby, Catch-22, The Shining, The Lord of the Flies, The Call of the Wild, Huckleberry Finn, From Here to Eternity, The 40 Year Old Virgin, Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, The Visitor, Stranger Than Fiction, Up, Men in Black - okay, I'll stop there.

That's kind of just off the top of my head. I left out a dozen or so that are male protagonists but that have a strong enough female character or characters to give him some serious competition. My list of stories with strong female characters as leads is probably about the same length. Now, honestly - can you guys say the same in reverse?

The thing is - it's not necessarily about having a character who looks like you to identify with, but it helps. And I belive, if guys keep laying up their lists and being honest, they'll find that in general they are far more interested in stories about male characters than they are in stories about female characters - so I don't see it as so strange that females would likewise be more interested in stories that are about women and their experience of life.

Star Wars appeals (I'd say) to a 90% male audience - not just because of the lack of any particularly interesting female characters, and not because it's action - I love action stories. But because of the inflection of the tale. It's largely a boy's fantasy - lots of cool ships and weapons and swordfights. Women can get into all kinds of SF and fantasy and action, but the inflection tends to be somewhat different. Twilight is an extreme of that which tilts way off into soap opera (not that guys don't like a bit of male melodrama, look how everyone freaked out over Heat).

 

[Bob The Skutter]

^I honestly don't care whether the lead character in a film, tv series or book is male or female, black, white, asian, gay or straight. To me what matters is the quality. The reason it's easier to have a long list of favourites with male protagonists in is that there are simply more stories/shows/movies with male protagonists. Because execs have the same attitude as you do, and until recently have been all about the male audience, so they make shows with male leads expecting male audience members to want shows with men in the lead.

 

[Kelthaz]

The thing is - it's not necessarily about having a character who looks like you to identify with, but it helps. And I belive, if guys keep laying up their lists and being honest, they'll find that in general they are far more interested in stories about male characters than they are in stories about female characters - so I don't see it as so strange that females would likewise be more interested in stories that are about women and their experience of life.

I don't believe that. I do find male characters more interesting than female characters on average, but that's simply because the vast majority of female characters, in genre shows at least, are terribly written. When a well written female character comes along I enjoy that character as much as I do any male. The extreme popularity of Buffy on this website should convince you of that.

 

[Kegg]

Fair enough - want to hear my list of stories I love with male protagonists and mostly male characters?

You strongly identify with the male protagonists and/or (a) male character in all of those? I don't think I could come up with a list that long.

Now, honestly - can you guys say the same in reverse?

I can't, anyway.

But that need not prove much, since the general idea is that Star Wars is not as exclusively male as Twilight is exclusively female, and the extent of the divide existing here doesn't seem to object to that a lot, however valid (and true) the point is.

Twilight is an extreme of that which tilts way off into soap opera (not that guys don't like a bit of male melodrama, look how everyone freaked out over Heat).

Or more recently The Dark Knight. But didn't Heat garner critical acclaim and non-male fans, or is that just my addled subconscious?