Do Rebellious Child/Teen Characters Have to Be Disliked?

[Nightdiamond]

Don't forget "Red Squad" from DS9.

... Didn't they blow up a ship by themselves....???

Now those were some annoying out of control brats. One of my fantasies is to insert a Looney Toons theme in the video while the ship is blown to smithereens and it would be totally funny.

 

[DonIago]

To be fair, whoever was responsible for training Red Squad surely bears some of the blame for how they turned out.

 

[May 20]

To be fair, whoever was responsible for training Red Squad surely bears some of the blame for how they turned out.

Absolutely. Those kids were trained to believe that no one was more capable than they. While self-confidence is very good, self-importance can be dangerous. And Red Squad was running around unsupervised. IIRC, the instructors had been killed. (It's been a while since I've seen the ep - I could be mistaken.) So, there was no one with the authority/experience to keep them in check.

 

[Timewalker]

In Fascination, he resigned and offered to follow her back to Bajor, then to wherever she wanted to go next, particularly Earth. She told him that she appreciated what he was doing, then told him to go get his letter back before Sisko saw it.

Having been the wife who follows the husband so that he can pursue his career, I feel for Keiko. It's very hard giving up the life you have built to move somewhere you didn't choose and maybe don't even want to go to. It's hard to start over, build a home, make friends, raise children without support. Your husband is happy, and that's good, but you're alone except for him, and he's busy with his job (as he should be). It's just tough. I think their marriage is solid and good and as realistic as possible for being set in the 24th century.

You didn't have Keiko's advantages, though. She could have pushed harder for some meaningful botany-related work, or possibly "gone back to school" (however Federation distance-learning works; should be much easier with subspace communications and holotechnology) to get a degree in another field or in something botany-related.

All that said, I wonder if Kira or Dax considered including her in any social activities, or if there was this military/civilian barrier that kept that from happening? I got the impression that Keiko and Kira didn't spend much time around each other until the accident when Keiko's fetus had to be transplanted into Kira's body.

And, so to not totally derail the thread - I liked Molly. I thought she was a good little character.

Yeah, Molly was cute.

Fun fact: The actress who played Older Molly in the time-rift episode was the one who, years earlier, played Young Keiko in TNG's "Rascals" episode (in which Keiko was among those who were de-aged in the transporter malfunction).

 

[DonIago]

^Well that's about on par with Picard's nephew later playing a young Picard.

My absolute favorite instance of that kind of casting, though, was in "Lost", where the actress who delivered a young Ben Linus in flashback was the wife of the actor who played the adult Ben Linus. "Look honey, you're giving birth to me!"

 

[Timewalker]

^Well that's about on par with Picard's nephew later playing a young Picard.

My absolute favorite instance of that kind of casting, though, was in "Lost", where the actress who delivered a young Ben Linus in flashback was the wife of the actor who played the adult Ben Linus. "Look honey, you're giving birth to me!"

That "all in the family" thing was on Doctor Who, as well. Peter Davison (Fifth Doctor) had a RL daughter, who married David Tennant (Tenth Doctor), and played Jenny - who was a child/female clone of the Tenth Doctor. The Doctor wasn't pleased about this (he wasn't asked permission before the aliens used his DNA to clone him) and left, not knowing that his clone-daughter had inherited his ability to regenerate.


I always thought it was really gratuitous of the Generations writers to kill off Robert and Rene. I liked that kid - both the young actor and Rene Picard.

 

[DonIago]

^I was more irked that the Rene who shows up in that movie bears no resemblance to the one seen in "Family". Maybe if you want to believe Picard's seeing a younger version of him for some reason.

I'd also like to know who the heck that woman was, and why she wasn't Beverly.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

think Discovery needs to redefine annoying teenager on a starship.

Lorca's son shows up with a swoop haircut and some screamo music, black nail polish, a self imposed nickname, and cans of spray paint and goes nuts against the "establishment"

It'd be all the comic relief we'd need.

 

[Timewalker]

^I was more irked that the Rene who shows up in that movie bears no resemblance to the one seen in "Family". Maybe if you want to believe Picard's seeing a younger version of him for some reason.

I'd also like to know who the heck that woman was, and why she wasn't Beverly.

Who knows what old-fashioned notions were lurking in Picard's mind? The "mother" he imagined up was extremely old-fashioned as well - more like a 19th-century woman than a 24th-century woman.

And why the hell was Kirk's fantasy woman somebody we never heard of before? Ideally he'd want to spend eternity with Edith Keeler, but of course they couldn't use her without paying Harlan Ellison $$$$$$ to do it.

 

[DonIago]

I admit I did get a guffaw out of the idea that Picard's Nexus vision looks like something out of "A Christmas Carol" given that Stewart's performed it.

 

[Timewalker]

I admit I did get a guffaw out of the idea that Picard's Nexus vision looks like something out of "A Christmas Carol" given that Stewart's performed it.

That was probably why they did it. Otherwise, I wouldn't want to live in the 24th century - too cloying.

 

[May 20]

You didn't have Keiko's advantages, though. She could have pushed harder for some meaningful botany-related work, or possibly "gone back to school" (however Federation distance-learning works; should be much easier with subspace communications and holotechnology) to get a degree in another field or in something botany-related.

Sure, she could have done those things. Maybe she did. Still making a move of that magnitude generally means a grieving process, especially for the one who is following. Having recently rewatched the episode where Miles tried to plan an arboretum for Keiko and was talked out of it by Bashir, I think that was a gigantic lost opportunity for Keiko. She could have created a lovely place for all sorts of botanical life from across the Federation, Bajor, and the Gamma Quadrant. It could have been a great place for her to learn and then teach, especially about the Gamma Quadrant plant life.

All that said, I wonder if Kira or Dax considered including her in any social activities, or if there was this military/civilian barrier that kept that from happening? I got the impression that Keiko and Kira didn't spend much time around each other until the accident when Keiko's fetus had to be transplanted into Kira's body.

Hmm, I never thought about that. No, I didn't have the impression that she was friends with them, but I would assume that she would socialize with other Starfleet spouses in her situation. But we never saw that, either. I know the writers can't cover every angle, and Keiko was a second-tier character. I do think that she is regarded more harshly than she deserves.

Yeah, Molly was cute.

Fun fact: The actress who played Older Molly in the time-rift episode was the one who, years earlier, played Young Keiko in TNG's "Rascals" episode (in which Keiko was among those who were de-aged in the transporter malfunction).

I didn't know that. That's pretty cool.

 

[Timewalker]

Sure, she could have done those things. Maybe she did. Still making a move of that magnitude generally means a grieving process, especially for the one who is following. Having recently rewatched the episode where Miles tried to plan an arboretum for Keiko and was talked out of it by Bashir, I think that was a gigantic lost opportunity for Keiko. She could have created a lovely place for all sorts of botanical life from across the Federation, Bajor, and the Gamma Quadrant. It could have been a great place for her to learn and then teach, especially about the Gamma Quadrant plant life.

I'd forgotten about this. Why did Bashir do such a stupid thing as talk him out of it?

Hmm, I never thought about that. No, I didn't have the impression that she was friends with them, but I would assume that she would socialize with other Starfleet spouses in her situation. But we never saw that, either. I know the writers can't cover every angle, and Keiko was a second-tier character. I do think that she is regarded more harshly than she deserves.

Were there any other Starfleet spouses? The only ones I can think of were Dax (who was Starfleet herself, and didn't live very long after her marriage) and Kassidy Yates. Both these marriages happened late in the series, and by this point I can't imagine Jadzia Dax and Keiko having much to say to each other. Dax was obsessed with All Things Klingon and apt to veer off the conversation to ramble on about one of the previous hosts... damn, she must have been a bore. She sure bored me.

Maybe Ezri was nicer to Keiko. Or maybe once Leeta grew beyond her "Dabo girl" persona, she and Keiko might have socialized a bit.

 

[May 20]

I'd forgotten about this. Why did Bashir do such a stupid thing as talk him out of it?

I want to believe that Bashir thought he was helping. He said that an arboretum would be a hobby, and Keiko wouldn't be happy turning her career into a hobby. That's where I think the mistake was made. Yes, at the beginning, the arboretum would be small enough to be considered a hobby, but Keiko had arboretum experience from her time on the Enterprise. I think she would have made an arboretum very successful.

Were there any other Starfleet spouses? The only ones I can think of were Dax (who was Starfleet herself, and didn't live very long after her marriage) and Kassidy Yates. Both these marriages happened late in the series, and by this point I can't imagine Jadzia Dax and Keiko having much to say to each other. Dax was obsessed with All Things Klingon and apt to veer off the conversation to ramble on about one of the previous hosts... damn, she must have been a bore. She sure bored me.

We never saw an other Starfleet spouses, but surely there were. I can't imagine that Starfleet would staff the station with mostly unmarried personnel. But I concede that is non-canon speculation on my part.

Maybe Ezri was nicer to Keiko. Or maybe once Leeta grew beyond her "Dabo girl" persona, she and Keiko might have socialized a bit.

Maybe

 

[DonIago]

The arboretum question is an interesting one. I understand where Bashir's coming from though. It might have come off as a "pity arboretum", which would have just made the situation worse. Or Keiko may have been one of those botanists who wanted to be out among nature, not stuck in a converted cargo bay. Either way, O'Brien could have ignored Bashir's counsel and evidently chose not to.

 

[May 20]

I understand Bashir, too. I believe he is speaking from concern and affection for both Miles and Keiko. I simply think that he was wrong. And Miles erred in listening to him. But that's the way the story went.

 

[Mojochi]

The arboretum question is an interesting one. I understand where Bashir's coming from though. It might have come off as a "pity arboretum", which would have just made the situation worse. Or Keiko may have been one of those botanists who wanted to be out among nature, not stuck in a converted cargo bay. Either way, O'Brien could have ignored Bashir's counsel and evidently chose not to.

I've been hesitant to chime in on this, because of how off topic it is lol

BUT
Why stop at a cargo bay? That DOES seem like a token gesture at best. Does that station not need some sprucing up a bit, on the whole? You could give her oversight of a station-wide renovation that incorporated living botanical aspects all over that dreary docking port. It still looks half like a Cardassian penal weigh station, & half like a dystopian bazaar, as if people should be selling gas masks & hand jobs on the promenade

 

[May 20]

LOL I know. We have completely bird-walked this thread over a cliff. Mea culpa.

I would imagine that the cargo bay would be the beginning. With time and focus (two things Keiko had plenty of), everyone could have benefited from a general "greening up" of the station.