Do people still believe in Hell?

[CorporalCaptain]

I've seen experiments where they recreated it just by painting on similar fabric, the results were identical.

In the procedure described here, the cloth is wrapped over a model, the cloth is painted (IIRC from watching the show I saw, the idea is that the protruding parts get stroked more than the indented parts, not at all unlike when a private eye in the movies rubs a pencil over a sheet of paper in a notebook that was under one that a person of interest wrote something on), and then the cloth is baked, then washed.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/10/07/italy.turin.shroud/

 

[cultcross]

We base all sorts of everyday assumptions on less accurate data than we have about the Shroud, but it fits into that weird category we have as a culture where we assign a special level of uncertainty to it because we want the results to be wrong. It's embarrassing to have been worshipping a hoax.

 

[Spot261]

I think the evidence so far has been inconclusive.

In much the same way as my seeing Elvis in Tesco has not actually been disproved, merely accepted by most as being particularly unlikely and somewhat fanciful.

 

[cultcross]

In much the same way as my seeing Elvis in Tesco has not actually been disproved, merely accepted by most as being particularly unlikely and somewhat fanciful.

He's gotta shop somewhere.

I want to believe!

 

[Doom Shepherd]

Last I checked, the Argument from Evil remains unrefuted.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Last I checked, the Argument from Evil remains unrefuted.

It's utter nonsense. It's a pretty blatant example of a straw man fallacy.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

It's utter nonsense. It's a pretty blatant example of a straw man fallacy.

Nah. Evil is incompatible with the idea of an all-powerful, all-capable, benevolent deity. If evil exists, at least ONE of those claimed attributes must be false.

 

[Spot261]

Last I checked, the Argument from Evil remains unrefuted.

The Argument from Evil applies to Elvis?

Fun in Acapulca wasn't that bad....

 

[Doom Shepherd]

The Argument from Evil applies to Elvis?

Fun in Acapulca wasn't that bad....

The Argument from Elvis? Yeah, there's a REASON "Evils" "Elvis" and "Lives" are all composed of the same letters!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Nah. Evil is incompatible with the idea of an all-powerful, all-capable, benevolent deity. If evil exists, at least ONE of those claimed attributes must be false.

The fundamental problem is that humans don't really have even the faintest idea what the implications of being a universe creator would be. Although we observe that people in history have committed evil acts, we literally do not know whether a universe without evil is even feasible. If it isn't feasible, then, assuming God's existence for the sake of argument, expecting God to have created a universe without evil is just as unreasonable as expecting God to be able to make a stone he cannot lift.

There isn't any "gotcha" here for theists to be concerned about. It's amusing that it amuses atheists so much, though, to think a point gets scored.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

The fundamental problem is that humans don't really have even the faintest idea what the implications of being a universe creator would be. Although we observe that people in history have committed evil acts, we literally do not know whether a universe without evil is even feasible. If it isn't feasible, then, assuming God's existence for the sake of argument, expecting God to have created a universe without evil is just as unreasonable as expecting God to be able to make a stone he cannot lift.

There isn't any "gotcha" here for theists to be concerned about. It's amusing that it amuses atheists so much, though, to think a point gets scored.

There's so much obviously wrong with that.

First, the entire POINT of God is that it can do the impossible (which is way bigger than doing the unfeasible.) Like create the universe out of nothing, (which believers tend to claim is impossible without God,) or exist simultaneously inside and outside the universe.

If God can't do it because it's not feasible, then God's not omnipotent. If God DOESN'T do it because it's not feasible, then there's no reason to assume that it can do the impossible, and miracles don't happen.

Also, we DO know what a universe without evil looks like. They call it "Heaven." Evil is always explained as an introduced element, not a flaw in the system -- except when it isn't, and then they just handwave it because there is no explanation that isn't insane.

Then, of course, there's all the "evil" that really doesn't have anything to do with people, it only affects us.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In context, feasible is clearly meant to be something that could be accomplished practically. The universe, as creation, by definition, must exist as a practical construction or not at all.

My work here on this subject is done. Take it or leave it; I really don't care.

 

[Amaris]

The fundamental problem is that humans don't really have even the faintest idea what the implications of being a universe creator would be. Although we observe that people in history have committed evil acts, we literally do not know whether a universe without evil is even feasible. If it isn't feasible, then, assuming God's existence for the sake of argument, expecting God to have created a universe without evil is just as unreasonable as expecting God to be able to make a stone he cannot lift.

There isn't any "gotcha" here for theists to be concerned about. It's amusing that it amuses atheists so much, though, to think a point gets scored.

If we go by the god of the Abrahamic religions, then evil was created, and by god itself. So it's not that evil manifested itself in some new way, it was built into the fabric of the universe from the beginning: Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Solves the "is God evil" question, as far as I'm concerned. The answer is clearly yes when context of the Abrahamic religions is applied.

 

[J.T.B.]

I'd seriously love to see an actual photo of Jesus.

You were born too late. On the old border radio stations in the '30s, they had commercials where you could send away for your very own autographed photo of Jesus Christ, signed in your choice of ink or blood!

Also, we DO know what a universe without evil looks like. They call it "Heaven." Evil is always explained as an introduced element, not a flaw in the system -- except when it isn't, and then they just handwave it because there is no explanation that isn't insane.

"Evil" can only be defined in a human-created frame of reference. There is no reason to assume a universe-creating being would use the same framework.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

The more one excuses God by relying on its incomprehensibility, the more one invalidates the other central tenets of religion, such as revealed knowledge and the utility of prayer.

If God is as far above us as we are an ant, then we stand as much chance of successfully petitioning it as an ant does of influencing us. If God is incomprehensible, without a common frame of reference, then nothing it says to us is going to make any sense and relying on what it is alleged to have said to anyone (much less a bronze-age tribe) at any point is utterly ridiculous.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If God is as far above us as we are an ant, then we stand as much chance of successfully petitioning it as an ant does of influencing us. If God is incomprehensible, without a common frame of reference, then nothing it says to us is going to make any sense and relying on what it is alleged to have said to anyone (much less a bronze-age tribe) at any point is utterly ridiculous.

But the sparrows, blah blah..

Those are touching verses but reality doesn't bear it out.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Assuming there were a god, I find it odd that it would even care about a bunch of evolved ape descendants on a single planet on a spiral arm of a single galaxy in a vast universe that we can barely comprehend. Yet we're supposed to believe this being gets upset if guys get married to other guys. It's like me getting upset at the behavior of individual members of an ant colony on the other side of the planet.

 

[publiusr]

I've seen experiments where they recreated it just by painting on similar fabric, the results were identical.

I seem to remember a camera obscura could have been involved
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2007/07/leonardo-man-behind-shroud-3.html

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I seem to remember a camera obscura could have been involved
http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/2007/07/leonardo-man-behind-shroud-3.html

Well, your link supports the idea that a camera obscura was not involved and the same for any method of photography.

 

[Jayson1]

Could it be said a better question is why do you believe in Hell? If someone does believe in I would like to know why? Why does Hell seem more credible then Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark which nobody believes in anymore?

Jason