Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

But what about that classic Bajoran tv series, Nerys, the Wraith Slayer?

I'm sticking with my idea for a "day in the life of Kira" TV series. It would, of course, be called 26.

Star Trek can't reference Buffy as a fictional show, because Buffy references Star Trek as a fictional show.

So they each exist in separate universes and are fictional in the other's. Problem solved.

AFAIK, in the Who universe, Vulcan does not exist (it was "utterly destroyed in a massive civil war"); whereas in the Trekverse, it's Gallifrey (whose sun went supernova and wiped out every planet in the system, so apparently there are no Time Lords).

You mean, within the context of that fanfic?

Yes. If Trek is mentioned anywhere in mainstream Who (or the other way around), I'm not aware of it. Although as I pointed out above, there's nothing to prevent Trek and Who being both fictional in each other's universes.

Didn't ENT mention The Twilight Zone a few times? AFAIK, Trip showed some episodes for the crew once or twice.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

I can't remember, did the characters in "Little Green Men" make any reference to science fiction? Or Roberta Lincoln in "Assignment: Earth"?

According to the transcripts, no. I don't think TV in the '60s was nearly as prone to pop-culture references as it is today, at least not outside of sitcoms and variety shows.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

I can't remember, did the characters in "Little Green Men" make any reference to science fiction? Or Roberta Lincoln in "Assignment: Earth"?

According to the transcripts, no. I don't think TV in the '60s was nearly as prone to pop-culture references as it is today, at least not outside of sitcoms and variety shows.

IIRC, for years there were either legal issues or fears of legal issues if a television show made actual reference or even inference to another television show.

You could reference written works, like an episode of Mannix where Mannix referred to Mike Hammer and Sherlock Holmes as though they were real people living at that time.

But, not television. For example, after The Bionic Woman changed networks there were no references in the show at all to Steve Austin (The Six Million Dollar Man) even though Richard Anderson was playing Oscar Goldman in both and was close friends with both.

I also remember what a big deal it was when the character of Kramer (Seinfeld, NBC) showed up very briefly as a character in Murphy Brown, CBS.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

^ It's probably a rights/royalties thing. Same reason why the character of Tom Paris was created for VOY instead of using Nick Locarno: If the latter, the writer of "The First Duty" would get royalties every time the character's name was mentioned in VOY.

L&O fans will also notice this, as some actors repeatedly show up playing what is obviously the "same character" (i.e. a succession of judges, defense attorneys, etc.) who all act the same, but with a different name each time. They don't want to have to pay extra to the writer who first came up with the character.

 

[YARN]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Star Trek can't reference Buffy as a fictional show, because Buffy references Star Trek as a fictional show.

So they each exist in separate universes and are fictional in the other's. Problem solved.

It doesn't solve the problem, because there is mutual reference.

Scenario: The Trek Reality

Trek = real

BtVS = fake

The Star Trek reality entertains BtVS as a work which exists only as a work fiction in that universe, right?

Let's say that on the Enterprise we see the crew eating popcorn and watching the 18th episode of 7th season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer which makes references to Vulcans, and a fantasy sequence that features the knife from Nemesis. Or let's suppose that they're watching the 19th episode of the 6th season where Xander refers to Klingon love poems. Or let's suppose that we're watching any number of episodes than include an overt Star Trek reference.

How could a 20th century TV show (BtVS) be able to make a pop cultural reference to another work of fiction in a universe where Star Trek is itself real?

In the Trek universe, BtVS cannot be referring to something that hasn't happened yet, because Trek is in the future of people in the 20th Century.

BtVS can only be making a pop cultural reference to Star Trek as a fictional show. But how can BtVS make a pop cultural reference to a fictional show in a universe where Trek is real?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

There is precedent for this. Remember Earth-Prime in the original DC Comics multiverse?

Whatever can be dreamed up as fiction in one reality, can be 'real' in another. It's an infinite multiverse.

 

[YARN]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Whatever can be dreamed up as fiction in one reality, can be 'real' in another.

Sure, but what can't happen is for P and Not-P to be the case at the same time in the same place.

In the scenario I describe, you have Star Trek characters enjoying a fictional artwork which refers to the fictionality of Star Trek. We're in Liar's Paradox territory here - there is no straightforward way to answer the question. This pointing-back reference has Trek as Real and Fictional at the same time in the same universe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Whatever can be dreamed up as fiction in one reality, can be 'real' in another.

Sure, but what can't happen is for P and Not-P to be the case at the same time in the same place.

No, of course not. They can't both be real in the same universe. We're talking about different universes here. If Trek is fictional in the Doctor Who universe, then Who can be fictional in Trek's. Like I said: infinite multiverse.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

I am quite bewildered at how seriously YARN is taking all this.

Now, to fudge things up even more, didn't JJ Abrams once say that all his films and TV shows took place in the same universe? Are Super 8, Cloverfield, Fringe, Mission: Impossible and Lost all part of Trek's past?

 

[YARN]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

I am quite bewildered at how seriously YARN is taking all this.

When I make snide comments like this I always catch a warning or a ban. I am not in a situation where I can respond in kind, so enjoy.

It is kind of sad though - shaming Trek nerds for taking Trek discussions too seriously is like trying position oneself as a the better leper for still having the most fingers.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Are Super 8, Cloverfield, Fringe, Mission: Impossible and Lost all part of Trek's past?

Somehow I doubt it. I haven't seen any of those things, but I'm sure there's at least one reference to Trek-as-fiction in each of them.

 

[Skellington]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

If Trek is mentioned anywhere in mainstream Who (or the other way around), I'm not aware of it. Although as I pointed out above, there's nothing to prevent Trek and Who being both fictional in each other's

Trek is mentioned at least once in NuWho, in the first episode of season six. A woman in 1960s America sees an alien and likens it to something out of Star Trek. That to me wouldn't create an obstacle to Who being mentioned in Trek, though. If the mention of either show beholds the other to anything, then it's only what was said, shown, or implied in that reference. If Enterprise made a reference to the Buffy movie and the TV series that followed then in Star Trek land there's a show called Buffy The Vampire Slayer. If Archer referenced Xander referencing Klingons, though, there might be an issue since Trek isn't a franchise where you can expect to get away with egregious metafiction.

 

[Greg Cox]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Are Super 8, Cloverfield, Fringe, Mission: Impossible and Lost all part of Trek's past?

Somehow I doubt it. I haven't seen any of those things, but I'm sure there's at least one reference to Trek-as-fiction in each of them.

I recall a funny discussion of "redshirts" on LOST . . . .

Don't recall any Trek references on ALIAS, but when I sent Sydney to a scifi convention in one of the novels, I invented an imaginary sf show, Space Vixens, for the sake of the story.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Trek is mentioned at least once in NuWho, in the first episode of season six. A woman in 1960s America sees an alien and likens it to something out of Star Trek.

Oh, it was mentioned much, much earlier than that. Way back in season 1 of the new series, in the first Jack Harkness episode, Rose Tyler referenced Spock, and introduced the Doctor by that name at one point. The kids on The Sarah Jane Adventures have also mentioned it a few times. Further references:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek

That to me wouldn't create an obstacle to Who being mentioned in Trek, though. If the mention of either show beholds the other to anything, then it's only what was said, shown, or implied in that reference.

Yes. Star Trek takes place in an alternate universe where the television franchise Star Trek does not exist. Therefore, the version of Doctor Who or Buffy that would exist in that universe would not contain the Star Trek references that our universe's Doctor Who contains.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Star Trek can't reference Buffy as a fictional show, because Buffy references Star Trek as a fictional show.

So they each exist in separate universes and are fictional in the other's. Problem solved.

It doesn't solve the problem, because there is mutual reference.

Scenario: The Trek Reality

Trek = real

BtVS = fake

The Star Trek reality entertains BtVS as a work which exists only as a work fiction in that universe, right?

Let's say that on the Enterprise we see the crew eating popcorn and watching the 18th episode of 7th season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer which makes references to Vulcans, and a fantasy sequence that features the knife from Nemesis. Or let's suppose that they're watching the 19th episode of the 6th season where Xander refers to Klingon love poems. Or let's suppose that we're watching any number of episodes than include an overt Star Trek reference.

How could a 20th century TV show (BtVS) be able to make a pop cultural reference to another work of fiction in a universe where Star Trek is itself real?

Because stranger things have happened - the novel Wreck Of The Titan, for example, wonderfully referencing the tragedy of the Titanic - which hadn't even been built yet...

And, of course, any show involving time travel gets an automatic out, as the show treated as fictional within the context of the other show could be considered to have been created because of a "real-life" encounter with characters from *that* reality, which someone in the other reality then dramatized.

Wormhole X-treme, as it were...

 

[Lonemagpie]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Yes. Star Trek takes place in an alternate universe where the television franchise Star Trek does not exist.

We don't actually know that for sure... It's just that none of the characters have ever mentioned seeing that old TV show.

Dr Who, however, exists in a universe in which the TV series Dr Who exists...

 

[Skellington]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

^ Or at least "Doc-".

@Christopher: I hadn't forgotten the Spock reference, actually, but was treating it as simply a reference to a character called Mr Spock, in keeping with my point that all that matters is what's said within the host show. I don't recall offhand if Star Trek was named in that episode, but I don't think so. Of course, if they ever did do a canonical crossover then really only the naming of Spock, if anything, would be an issue. The Enterprise crew wouldn't be bothered by the existence if a show called Star Trek, but they might be bothered encountering a parallel universe where one of their own was an iconic fictional character.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

We don't actually know that for sure... It's just that none of the characters have ever mentioned seeing that old TV show.

But if there had been a show of that name, it would have to be a different show than the one we see -- otherwise they'd have records of it in their computers, and they'd know that this show had miraculously predicted actual future events. Unless you're suggesting that the entire canon and all evidence of its existence was wiped out in WWIII.

Dr Who, however, exists in a universe in which the TV series Dr Who exists...

Well, we know that there was a science fiction program premiering on November 22, 1963, but we didn't actually get to see the program named onscreen. As Scrawny71 says, we did hear "Doc," but maybe in that universe they were doing a show called, ohh, Doctor Spacetime. Or Dock Green 1999.

 

[Knight Templar]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

I know this is my thread but I'm completely lost in this current argument

 

[YARN]

Re: Do Other Science Fiction Franchises Exist Within the Trek Universe

Because stranger things have happened - the novel Wreck Of The Titan, for example, wonderfully referencing the tragedy of the Titanic - which hadn't even been built yet...

Well, it's certainly a coincidence, but you cannot claim that it actually "references" the Titanic unless you are claiming a causal connection between the book and the actual ship, in which case you are committed to saying it is NOT a coincidence, but true prescience. Did Robertson really have a vision of the Titanic when he wrote Futility in 1898?

And, of course, any show involving time travel gets an automatic out, as the show treated as fictional within the context of the other show could be considered to have been created because of a "real-life" encounter with characters from *that* reality, which someone in the other reality then dramatized.

Wormhole X-treme, as it were...

I guess we have to ask which Trek universe we're speaking of.

There's still a reference problem here.

Trek Universe A could view Buffy, which in tern, references Trek Universe B (a fractured or alternate timeline which diverges from A), but this would not be a reference of world A.

It's the same multiverse, but it's not one in which the causal paths of the narratives actually refer to each other. It is more like a case of pointing at two different, but similar looking cousins.

If, on the other hand, we imagine that in Trek universe A there is closed loop time-travel (no-divergence) and that as a result of that time travel Star Trek created, then the BtVS it refers to would NOT be our BtVS -- in their universe BtVS would unwittingly be referring to a real Star Ship, which our BtVS does not. We can imagine a show very much like our BtVS which refers to actual real (in its universe) Star Trek, but that is not the same show (it has different properties). Once again, we're pointing at two different, but similar looking cousins.