Do fans want the prime timeline back?

[Greg Cox]

Sarek, like many Vulcans, opposes killing. They oppose it to the point that they oppose any sort of military careers for their offspring.

Eh? When was that ever established? In "Journey to Babel," Spock says explicitly that his father is perfectly capable of killing, coldly and logically, if necessary.

And that's the episode that introduced Sarek. I don't recall him raising any objections to the military nature of Starfleet at all. The issue just seemed to be that Spock had defied his father's wishes regarding his career.

Vulcans can be quite ruthless when they need to be. Look at T'Pring or Valeris . . . or even Spock on occasion. Don't forget, he spent most of the second pilot urging Kirk to kill Gary Mitchell before it was too late . . . .

 

[Timewalker]

Just because Sarek is capable of killing if he has a logical reason for it, that doesn't mean he's not opposed to it.

I'm a pacifist by nature, but I'd kill to protect my family, including if the threat was to my cats.

 

[Nerys Myk]

IDIC and a tradition bound society would seem to be incompatible. Most traditional societies aren't very accepting of outsiders and their customs. Of course in the real world IDIC was a late addition to the Vulcans of TOS as was Surak.

Is there any evidence that Vulcan children traditionally go into their parents profession? Sarek was a diplomat. Spock chose science as his profession. (becoming a diplomat later in life) Tuvok is in Starfleet, while Tuvok's son is apparently becoming a musician. T'Pol's mother is a teacher while T'Pol is in the military.

KIRK: I take it that Spock disagreed with his father on a choice of career.
AMANDA: My husband has nothing against Starfleet. But Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force.
KIRK: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort. We're an instrument of civilisation. And it's a better opportunity for a scientist to study the universe than he can get at the Vulcan Science Academy.
AMANDA: Perhaps. But Sarek wanted Spock to follow his teachings, as Sarek followed the teachings of his own father.
KIRK: They are both stubborn.

My read of this says Sarek wanted Spock to to follow the Vulcan teachings but not necessarily his specific profession. Which doesn't come across as very IDIC.

Does Sarek oppose killing? We know Spock doesn't, as he advocated killing Gary Mitchell.

Of course when we meet Sarek in JTB, he is accused of murder.

KIRK: How was he killed?
MCCOY: His neck was broken. By an expert.
KIRK: Explain.
MCCOY: Well, from the nature and location of the break, I'd say the killer knew exactly where to apply pressure to snap the neck instantly.
KIRK: Who aboard would have that knowledge?
SPOCK: Vulcans. On Vulcan, the method is called tal-shaya. It was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times.
KIRK: Spock. A short time ago, I broke up an argument between Gav and your father.
SPOCK: Indeed, Captain? Interesting.
MCCOY: Interesting? Spock, do you realise that makes your father the most likely suspect?
SPOCK: Vulcans do not approve of violence.
KIRK: You're saying he couldn't have done it?
SPOCK: No, Captain. I'm merely saying it would be illogical to kill without reason.
KIRK: But if he had a reason, could he have done it?
SPOCK: If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and efficiently

So, while Vulcans do not approve of violence, they will kill.

 

[nightwind1]

In the 80's novel Vulcan's Glory, set when Spock is first assigned to Pike's Enterprise and written by D.C. Fontana, Spock has a rather casual affair with a Vulcan officer. He's portrayed as having emotions but keeping them hidden them as per Vulcan standards. This is quite similar to the Spock of the new movies.

But, but, but... what the hell would D.C. Fontana know about how the real Spock is supposed to behave?

 

[Timewalker]

IDIC and a tradition bound society would seem to be incompatible. Most traditional societies aren't very accepting of outsiders and their customs. Of course in the real world IDIC was a late addition to the Vulcans of TOS as was Surak.

Is there any evidence that Vulcan children traditionally go into their parents profession? Sarek was a diplomat. Spock chose science as his profession. (becoming a diplomat later in life) Tuvok is in Starfleet, while Tuvok's son is apparently becoming a musician. T'Pol's mother is a teacher while T'Pol is in the military.

KIRK: I take it that Spock disagreed with his father on a choice of career.
AMANDA: My husband has nothing against Starfleet. But Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force.
KIRK: Starfleet force is used only as a last resort. We're an instrument of civilisation. And it's a better opportunity for a scientist to study the universe than he can get at the Vulcan Science Academy.
AMANDA: Perhaps. But Sarek wanted Spock to follow his teachings, as Sarek followed the teachings of his own father.
KIRK: They are both stubborn.

My read of this says Sarek wanted Spock to to follow the Vulcan teachings but not necessarily his specific profession. Which doesn't come across as very IDIC.

Does Sarek oppose killing? We know Spock doesn't, as he advocated killing Gary Mitchell.

Of course when we meet Sarek in JTB, he is accused of murder.

KIRK: How was he killed?
MCCOY: His neck was broken. By an expert.
KIRK: Explain.
MCCOY: Well, from the nature and location of the break, I'd say the killer knew exactly where to apply pressure to snap the neck instantly.
KIRK: Who aboard would have that knowledge?
SPOCK: Vulcans. On Vulcan, the method is called tal-shaya. It was considered a merciful form of execution in ancient times.
KIRK: Spock. A short time ago, I broke up an argument between Gav and your father.
SPOCK: Indeed, Captain? Interesting.
MCCOY: Interesting? Spock, do you realise that makes your father the most likely suspect?
SPOCK: Vulcans do not approve of violence.
KIRK: You're saying he couldn't have done it?
SPOCK: No, Captain. I'm merely saying it would be illogical to kill without reason.
KIRK: But if he had a reason, could he have done it?
SPOCK: If there were a reason, my father is quite capable of killing. Logically and efficiently

So, while Vulcans do not approve of violence, they will kill.

Some of your post contradicts itself. While Vulcan children don't ALWAYS follow their parents' careers, it's reasonable to say that a significant number of Vulcan parents expect them to, or at least expect their children not to choose something bizarre, violent, or dishonorable.

And read my previous post: Pacifists do not approve of violence, but unless said pacifist is also Jesus or Gandhi (for example), he/she is very likely to have some point where they would kill. How many of us here would not kill, if it was the only way to protect ourselves or a loved one? A human would use the term "breaking point" and Vulcans term it as a "logical reason", but it essentially means the same thing.

Spock advocated killing Gary Mitchell, because he could see no other way out. It was a logical reason.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Not if the story also expects us to see Spock return a kiss on his own accord, when his track record tells us that couldn't happen.

Does it conclusively? I don't believe so.

So, MASSIVELY FAILING at IDIC, then.

How about actually putting yourself in Original Sarek's shoes and actually thinking about it, instead of throwing all-caps at me?

Vulcan is a society of tradition. Evidently it's traditional for sons to follow their fathers in their fathers' careers, or at least general area. Spock chose not to do that. Therefore, friction ensues.

Sarek was genuinely baffled at Spock's insistence that he didn't want to attend the Vulcan Science Academy. He couldn't figure out what Spock could learn off-planet that he couldn't learn at the Academy.

Sarek, like many Vulcans, opposes killing. They oppose it to the point that they oppose any sort of military careers for their offspring. Spock chose not only to not become a diplomat, he chose to attend an off-planet institution of higher education. The fact that it was Starfleet Academy - a place that mostly prepares its students for careers in the military - was the last straw. Like Tevye in Fiddler On the Roof, who gave in to his two older daughters who flouted tradition, he simply could not bring himself to give in the third time. As Tevye says," There is no other hand!"

I get the impression that Sarek wouldn't have shunned Spock for 18 years if the first one or two were the only ways that Spock defied his father. But Starfleet was the dealbreaker.

And I repeat: Sarek's wives were human. If he were an inflexible bigot, he wouldn't have married them.

So Sarek practices Partial Diversity in Partial Combinations, then? If you put tradition ahead of IDIC, then you're failing at IDIC, no matter how many humans you marry.

The Vulcan people have high ideals, but much like many humans today who claim to worship a benevolent God, they fail to live up to those ideals.

 

[Timewalker]

My point is that Sarek is compulsively inflexible when we first meet him, but he's not a bigot.

As for hypocrisy... my own mother was horrified when I told her I'm atheist. And she's one of the most bigoted people I know. I'm glad I didn't follow in her footsteps, because I would have turned into the kind of person my present self would have despised.

At least Sarek found redemption and reconciliation later in life.

 

[Belz...]

The NuTrek Vulcans contradict themselves, completely forgetting about IDIC.

What does IDIC have to do with contradiction ?

Okay. My main problem with new timeline is the guy who created it

Maybe the fact that it's him made you dislike it. Perhaps then you should ignore the fact that it's him, and watch it for its own sake.

Abrams sycophants

Maybe you haven't considered it because of your bias, but some people here simply like the movie.

Honestly you can apply to pretty much anything people are involved in be politics, religion, book series, tv shows, and ect.

Yes, it's one of the more annoying human qualities. We just don't like people who think differently.

 

[BillJ]

In the 80's novel Vulcan's Glory, set when Spock is first assigned to Pike's Enterprise and written by D.C. Fontana, Spock has a rather casual affair with a Vulcan officer. He's portrayed as having emotions but keeping them hidden them as per Vulcan standards. This is quite similar to the Spock of the new movies.

But, but, but... what the hell would D.C. Fontana know about how the real Spock is supposed to behave?

 

[ComicGuy89]

My point is that Sarek is compulsively inflexible when we first meet him, but he's not a bigot.

But who ever tried to argue that Sarek was a bigot? We only said, like Spock, and like the reboot Spock, Sarek aims high, but falls slightly short of Vulcan ideals. Vulcans are ultimately more human than they realize, especially in Spock's family.

Therefore, I personally see no reason why any of the supposedly "human" characteristics in reboot Spock should come as a surprise. These were already present in Spock and in other Vulcans like Sarek, and having lost his entire planet and his mother, there is no reason that reboot Spock shouldn't be a little mindful of his emotions. And, as Into Darkness has shown, he reigned that back quickly after the Nero incident (although, sadly, suppressing emotions through self-sacrificing, self-destructive behaviour).

 

[Nerys Myk]

And read my previous post: Pacifists do not approve of violence, but unless said pacifist is also Jesus or Gandhi (for example), he/she is very likely to have some point where they would kill. How many of us here would not kill, if it was the only way to protect ourselves or a loved one? A human would use the term "breaking point" and Vulcans term it as a "logical reason", but it essentially means the same thing.

Spock advocated killing Gary Mitchell, because he could see no other way out. It was a logical reason

Your original statement was about killing, not violence or pacifism. The episodes mentioned by Greg and my self show that Vulcans can and will kill. You admit that in your own posts.

There is also no evidence that Vulcans expect their children to follow them in their choice of careers, just that Sarek didn't like Spock's career choice. That's one Vulcan and not enough to draw a conclusion about the entire species. Such a ridged attitude conflicts with the idea of diversity, especially infinite diversity.

 

[Captain Crow]

The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.

That's just rude. The "prime timeline" may be dead as far as new movies/TV is concerned. It's not dead anywhere else, so YOU deal with THAT.

Its in no way rude to stat what is true.

The "prime timeline" is dead. All that remains of it are sanctioned fan fiction and mediocre merchandise to flog fans who can't let go.

Stop treating it like Bernie Lomax from Weekend at Bernie's and let it rest in peace .

 

[Pondwater]

I liked the Prime timeline except for Enterprise. And I like the Nu-timeline. I'm for whatever, except Enterprise.

 

[bbjeg]

The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.

That's just rude. The "prime timeline" may be dead as far as new movies/TV is concerned. It's not dead anywhere else, so YOU deal with THAT.

Its in no way rude to stat what is true.

The "prime timeline" is dead. All that remains of it are sanctioned fan fiction and mediocre merchandise to flog fans who can't let go.

At least say the prime timeline is a zombie, dead but still active in books and video games. If it's dead to you then it's dead to you but people still enjoy it and newer people are still getting into it, regardless if the merchandise is mediocre to you.

​

 

[DCR]

I really don't care. As long as I like it, I'll be happy with PrimeTrek, NuTrek, or even a completely different take.

Make something I like, that's all I ask.

 

[R. Star]

Original villain & story in next NuTrek movie please. Thanks.

 

[Timewalker]

The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.

That's just rude. The "prime timeline" may be dead as far as new movies/TV is concerned. It's not dead anywhere else, so YOU deal with THAT.

Its in no way rude to stat what is true.

The "prime timeline" is dead. All that remains of it are sanctioned fan fiction and mediocre merchandise to flog fans who can't let go.

Stop treating it like Bernie Lomax from Weekend at Bernie's and let it rest in peace .

I have no idea what this "Bernie" stuff is you're yakking about. Never heard of it.

You are rude when you say, "deal with it." I don't need your permission to like what I like, or have the opinions I do about nuTrek, originalTrek, or anything else. I AM dealing with it - not by holding a candlelit vigil, but by exercising my right to express myself here and elsewhere, and by enjoying the aspects of Star Trek I do like.

There's a hell of a big Trek universe out there beyond the pro stuff. As for "mediocre merchandise", the quality and appeal is in the eye of the collector. I never got into the models, and gave up collecting action figures. I don't really get the appeal of them. But I know other fans love them, and I'd never denigrate or sneer at them for liking what they do. Maybe they don't like the print fanzines from the '70s and '80s. Personally I love them, and have been collecting them for over 25 years. Somehow we all get along just fine!

 

[R. Star]

Weekend at Bernie's is an 80's movie about a dude who's dead, yet people try to pass him off as alive and his corpse engages in several antics. I forget why. Haven't seen it since I was a kid.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I don't see why you can't have the prime timeline on TV set further in the future from the TNG era, the same way TNG was for TOS on TV, and continue the alternate timeline in the movies.

 

[Captain_Q]

I grew up with the prime timeline so of course I'm biased. But I'm not sure if I'm not really liking the new timeline because I'm not a fan of Abrams or what. To me in order to be a true fan of Star Trek you have to have seen thee old movies and at least one series. This new stuff isn't true Trek to me. Now I just want to clarify that I'm only 21, so technically I'm one of these younger fans that they're trying to rope in. I'm just really glad that I grew up with TNG and got to experience that before the new stuff came out.
As far as merchandise goes, dear Lord I wish I was rich and could buy all of this awesome old school stuff. Over the weekend I bought my first "old Trek" item, a record with an included comic, I just think it's so cool. I want Enterprise models and the action figures of all my favorite characters. And screw the original packaging. I'm gonna take those suckers out and play with them! Because that's what they were made for!