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Distant Origin = heavy-handed, insulting propaganda

iguana_tonante said:
exodus said:
Lord have the mercy, it's just a fictional look at the philisophical debate of ones origin.[...]

Is it any wonder why Trek fans get stereotyped?
Well, personally I think the problem is not the degree of devotion to Star Trek, but the degree of devotion to the other kind of fictional stories. :p
Maybe.

I believe in a higher power myself, however I also believe it would be ignorant of me to ignore the fact that there are other possabilities and that what I "believe" may not be fact. Therefore others concepts & "beliefs" don't really offend me. We all seek concepts to give our existance meaning and purpose.

I personally believe questioning ones beliefs can only bring you closer to truth.
 
Starship Polaris said:
Science fiction writers don't need to apologize to anyone for being pro-science, anti-superstition.
I think you nailed it. It is science fiction, not religious fiction. If one wants that, there's plenty of it. Go watch the "Left Behind" movie.
 
The idea that there are holes in the fossil record is a bad faith argument. Transitional fossils abound. The Christians take two main tacks to deny the evidence. They try to deny the transitionality of the transitional forms by arbitrarily assigning it to one of the other categories. For instance, some deny that Archaeopteryx is transtitional between bird and reptile.

Others take the tack of insisting that transitional forms between the transitional forms must be found! A random sampling process like fossilization must be expected to find transitional forms at random. Insisting that fossilization must preserve every stage of a speciation process is a blatantly dishonest requirement aimed at excluding inconvenient evidence.

Christians simply ignore the evidence of the fossil record. Consider Neandertals, although they won't. Those are not the skeletons on human beings. They are not the skeletons of great apes. What are they?

Not only is it disingenuous to claim there are holes in the fossil record, it ignores the positive proof of evolution provided by the fossil record. Life on Earth was different in the past! Living species emerged and disappeared over the course of time. That's evolution and the fossil record proves it.

The theory of evolution, scientifically speaking, is the explanation of evolution. Contrary to the lies of Christians, the causes have always been disputed and are still studied. No dogma there. Plus the whole notion that imaginary holes in the fossil record doesn't refute the evidence of DNA, comparative physiology and biogeography is transparent fraud.

The truth will set you free from superstition.

The episode is modeled on Galileo's trial. Galileo's enemies threatened him with torture. In the end, he was imprisoned in his home for the rest of his life. Frankly, the villain in Distant Origin doesn't reflect half the villainy of the real thing. That disproves the charge of malice.

In the Hands of the Prophets was not brilliant. In their version of reality, such bigotry is merely a scheme of a hypocrite. The good religious stand up to the evil hypocrite, and peace is restored.

Some years ago, some of your cothinkers in Kanawha County WV, enraged by liberal textbooks, indulged themselves in some Christian testimony with bombs. Formally, evolution is in the state's curriculum. But it is not really taught. This is a shame, because religious bigots will gladly grab on to Social Darwinist perversions of evolutionary theory. The Christians of Kanawha county achieved their fundamental goals. Indeed, one of their primary speakers, Debra Whanger, was elected to the school board.

In other words, In the Hands of the Prophets was simpleminded fantasy. The bigots don't go away when the nice religious stand up to the evil hypocrites. The idea that the hypocrites are responsible for the bigotry is ridiculous. True believers are the bigots, not the frauds.

Frankly, I see no more reason to respect the religious feelings of Christians than I do Muslims. The fatuous belief that it's okay to believe nonsense leaves you disarmed in the face of religious bigot, whether they are Christians who want to invade every Muslim country on Earth, or Muslim who want to strike back at the Christians.

In the Hand of the Prophets is dishonest.
 
Please STJ watch your generalizations. I am a christian who is a firm believer in the application of science and the pursuit of new discovers.

I also happen to be a believer in a higher power. I just happen to believe that higher power gave me the ablitiy to /think/ for a reason.

I do not, like most christians probally simply obey written doctrine. We have been made to question, push barriers and grow.

Personally I ascribe to the Theory of Evolution. As i ascribe to tbe big bang theory and gravity ...etc.

Try using the words "Some extreme" christians or maybe the term Creationist :P Just a suggestion!

Fits better because you made a convincing argument otherwise as far as i was concerned :)

Just my two cents

Vons
 
In TOS Return to Tomorrow, the one where the million year old people stored up in soul banks borrowed Enterprise Crew Bodies to build Robot bodies... Enterprise was able to scan for and isolate the soul bank in a cavern a hundred miles under the surface of the planet from several light years away.

ERGO!

There is no digging in the hypothetical Star Trek Future to complete the fossil records. A ship in orbit scans and scans and scans and scans... The Fossil record would have been completed quickly and easily proving or disproving an evolutionary process in action on planet earth... or not.

besides I generally think that WWIII probably gutted all the established religions what with over three quarters of the worlds population being annihilated there probably wasn't a pissed off ethical sampling of population of peoples that weren't pissed off with god for allowing WWIII to happen, even if they didn't assume that all that death and war was the rapture and god was done with earth after that. Dinosaur bones are hardly a "test" compared to global thermo nuclear war.

The Picards still celebrate Christmas... but that could just be as evident that Coco-Cola still exists for all the other ancillary evidence which doesn't exist to support the few strangely contextual glancing blows.

I loved it in Stargate when Ronnie Cox(Jellico) said to a Gou'ld he wasn't a god, and that none of them were gods, and that only that Jesus was the only real god. Well he said "One God" but trinity and whatever, it's funny when you think about trying to apostatize to a Gou'ld about Christianity, but probably more so for a Vulcan.
 
Guy Gardener said:
I loved it in Stargate when Ronnie Cox(Jellico) said to a Gou'ld he wasn't a god, and that none of them were gods, and that only that Jesus was the only real god.
Oh my God! Jesus was a Goa'uld! :eek:

(that would explain the resurrection things, anyway...)
 
I believe that God created everything and everyone. If He chose to do that by setting evolution in motion, then so be it.

As for this episode: It's only TV. Big frickin' deal. :rolleyes:
 
Propaganda?? You must be KIDDING...just because the episode supports an OPINION (mind you, heavily supported by fact) of its creators? I would be insulted if Star Trek DIDN'T try to have a point of view. Just because it runs counter to yours doesn't mean its a bad episode. Its a good adventure on its own, and wins points for having a message....in fact, its the BEST Voyager episode of all time in my opinion.

RAMA
 
Babaganoosh said:
I believe that God created everything and everyone. If He chose to do that by setting evolution in motion, then so be it.

As for this episode: It's only TV. Big frickin' deal. :rolleyes:

Except that evolution fact is counter to everything written in the BIBLE...which was written BY MEN!

RAMA
 
Navaros said:

There are plenty of scientists who can offer plenty of tangible scientific reasons that evolution is not correct. Granted they are out-numbered by scientists who believe in evolution, but being out-numbered does not invalidate their different interpretations.

Which scientists are these? I hear this sometimes but the religious folks who usually say this can't provide legitimate names or examples of this "tangible" evidence. I don't doubt that many scientists disagree on how exactly evolution works, because we still don't understand a lot of the fossil record and we're still learning. But some theists mistakenly present this as "evidence" that evolution is wrong.

The process of evolution is based on facts. The theory of evolution is the scientific interpretation of those facts. It requires no more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe that the earth revolves around the sun, cause that's what the facts tell us.

As far as the episode goes, I don't find it to be propaganda anymore than several references to Christianity in TOS (Who Mourns for Adonais, Bread & Circuses) can be considered religious propaganda.
 
Vonstadt---Personally, I always thought that Christians should just say that the fossil record is much like life. All those extinctions are like all the bad things that happen. All those new species are like all the good things that happen. It all looks random. It is impossible to explain the purposes behind it all. In the end, you have to take it on faith. People who believe there is no sign of a miracle in the fossil record (or in biogeography or in DNA studies or in any other of the many sciences that prove evolution,) are no more evil than people who say they can't see God's will in the death of a child. The only difference I see is that evolution offends people's vanity.

Except we both know that's not what Christian leaders say. I mean, it's nice that you personally have sense enough
to accept reality. But that makes you a liberal. We both know that makes you an enemy as well. I'm sorry you identify with people who hate you.
 
RAMA said:
Babaganoosh said:
I believe that God created everything and everyone. If He chose to do that by setting evolution in motion, then so be it.

As for this episode: It's only TV. Big frickin' deal. :rolleyes:

Except that evolution fact is counter to everything written in the BIBLE...which was written BY MEN!

RAMA

I'm not a complete literalist, if that's what you're getting at. :vulcan:
 
stj said:
Except we both know that's not what Christian leaders say. I mean, it's nice that you personally have sense enough
to accept reality. But that makes you a liberal. We both know that makes you an enemy as well. I'm sorry you identify with people who hate you.

Actually, the Pope agrees with Vonstadt.
As do I.
You will find that your caricatured science-is-teh-devul Christian is harder to find, globally speaking, than you might think. While certain areas of the US seem to have them in great abundance, in general they are rare. Many of the most committed Christians I know are scientists of high standing. I am a chemist myself and the work I do relates to palaeoclimatology, explicitly involving evolutionary concepts.
As Vonstadt says, it is inaccurate to use 'Christians say..' or 'Christians believe...' when discussing opposition to evolution. 'some fundamentalist Christians believe..' would be better
 
Then surly in reverse a fundamentalist scientist wouldn't even notice the fables of eons gone by goat herder buzzing about trying to be noticed...

Distant Origin was more about Galileo being wronged, than about the people who did it.
 
Unicron said:

Which scientists are these? I hear this sometimes but the religious folks who usually say this can't provide legitimate names or examples of this "tangible" evidence. I don't doubt that many scientists disagree on how exactly evolution works, because we still don't understand a lot of the fossil record and we're still learning. But some theists mistakenly present this as "evidence" that evolution is wrong.

The process of evolution is based on facts. The theory of evolution is the scientific interpretation of those facts. It requires no more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe that the earth revolves around the sun, cause that's what the facts tell us.

I see a lot of posters saying evolution is something that is provable and therefore that justifies the belief in it, but it is not really provable.

Of course it requires faith to believe in evolution. Evolution does not even meet the basic tenets required to qualify it as a legitimate scientific theory under the rules of the scientific method. Namely, being observable and repeatable. No one has ever observed one single case of macroevolution occurring. Where normally scientific ideas have the rules of something being observable and repeatable in order to be considered scientific, the theory of evolution requires faith to fill in the holes that the complete absence of those two rules leave in regards to the theory of evolution.

Yes, scientists can speculate that some fossils they found were apes turning into men, but ultimately that speculation is not conclusive proof. It is just one man, or groups of mens', speculative interpretations of what those bones indicate. Any belief that those interpretations are accurate, is a faith-based belief. The only fact regarding this is that they found some bones. Interpreting that to mean that those bones are apes turning into men, is not a fact and it is not proof.

The history of errors in the interpreting fossils by evolutionists is chock full of many frauds, hoaxes, and errors in interpretations across the years that even evolutionists will admit to. The evolutionists' counter-argument to this long, shady history of false & fraudulent interpretations of fossils is, "science changes therefore the errors all get corrected in time." But, the core idea that evolution is fundamentally correct no matter what, is always held as the faith-based belief that dictates the tunnel vision viewpoint by which all discoveries by evolutionists will be filtered. That belief is completely the same as any religious belief based on the prejudgement that a core idea must be true. This also raises the disturbing questions such as that just because a fossil interpretation by evolutionists has not yet been proven to be incorrect, that by no means indicates that the current interpretation is correct. It is completely possible that many or all of the current interpretations of fossils by evolutionists are just as incorrect as the many admitted frauds, hoaxes, and misinterpretations that pepper the history of fossil interpretations by evolutionists.

All this serves to especially underscore how pompous, zealous and religious it is for the Evolutionist Saurian from the episode to deny any possibility that his interpretion of data, which he alleges proves evolution, could be wrong. In denying that possibility, he clearly is expressing a deeply held religious belief that the theory of evolution must be correct, no matter what, period.

As for the questions of which scientists are these, some of them can be found on websites such as here or here.
 
Guys, some of you know me and that I'm a pretty strict believer in Jesus as God (so by default making me a christian LOL).

And while I do see the point of the story it has never bothered me in this sense AT ALL. I'm not sure why the original poster got so worked up over it. The second they were on the holodeck and had Janeway asking the computer to "extrapolate" the evolutionary path of a T-Rex, and what morphs on the screen is a humanoid shaped lizard, at THAT moment I knew that what was coming was definitely not to be taken with any seriousness at all :)

Anyway, what DID bother me about the episode EXTREMELY was the fact that Voyager was so horribly humiliated (they couldn't even launch a torpedo, how sad) and there was nothing they could do except take it up the ass.

I would have at least tried to physically blow up the warp core, maybe the explosion of the entire ship would have given them a bloody nose at least.
 
RAMA said:
Propaganda?? You must be KIDDING...just because the episode supports an OPINION (mind you, heavily supported by fact) of its creators? I would be insulted if Star Trek DIDN'T try to have a point of view. Just because it runs counter to yours doesn't mean its a bad episode. Its a good adventure on its own, and wins points for having a message....in fact, its the BEST Voyager episode of all time in my opinion.

That was not my point, them having a different opinion is fine.

Where they cross the line with this episode and it thereby turns from having an opinion into propaganda, is when they start implying all of the following:

Everyone must be assimilated into accepting and sharing their opinion. Their opinion is unquestionable, indisputable truth. Anyone who does not accept their opinion is evil, ignorant, and harmful to society. The beliefs of those who do not share their opinion, are nothing but an ignorant belief in myths.
 
What propaganda?

There isn't any. The episode is very interesting. Imagine a race of people evolved from dinosaurs that set out to space millions of years ago, and happened to meet humans from earth. Also it's like meeting distant cousins. Also bare in min dthe DNA and stuff coded that makes us part of the animal kingdom. Also consider the indirect story about keeping new scientific discoveries quiet because it will upset the established way of thinking.
 
Navaros said:

As for the questions of which scientists are these, some of them can be found on websites such as here or here.

Are you serious? Creationism.org and answersingenesis.org? Those sites are what the world is supposed to trust to provide scientific evidence disproving evolution?

Show us some peer-reviewed literature in a notable scientific journal.
 
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