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Distances and Speeds in TOS

The Enterprise's starting position is the only point of uncertainty. Airdate-wise and Stardate-wise, the episode Amok Time (3372.7) happens after Operation: Annihilate! (3289.8). O:A was at Deneva approx. 83 stardates (about one month) prior, providing no idea as to where the Enterprise is in the episode based on how fast the E travels. :shrug:
Here I’ve guesstimated the ETAs:

WF 3.5 - to Altair - 11 days
WF 3.5 - to Vulcan then Altair - 13.8 days
WF 4 - to Vulcan then Altair - 11 days
WF 6 - to Altair - 4 days
WF 8 - to Vulcan - 3 days

Even if I’m off a bit somewhere, it doesn’t matter, there is no WF scale that we’ve looked at in which there is such a negligible difference in transit time between WF 4 and WF 8.
Based on your data:
1. WF 4 is ~1.25 x WF 3.5 (13.8 days / 11 days)
2. WF 6 is ~2.75 x WF 3.5 (Enterprise was at WF 4, but only for a short time, so assume the WF 3.5 data; 11 days / 4 days)
3. WF 8 is less than ~2.75 x WF 4. (Enterprise can't make Vulcan then Altair at WF 8; 11 days / 4 days)
Even if the speed conversion for warp is a linear association, this makes no sense. Something else is at play. One possible variable could be in-system speed limits (both physical and administrative) where much of the lapse time is spent at slower speeds traveling into and out of the two solar systems. YMMV :).

Also, I guess dropping Spock off along the course in a shuttlecraft is not an option.
 
Space terrain ;)
IRL Asteroids aren't nearly physically as close as most Sci-Fi portrayals would have you believe.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/in-science-fiction-movies/
There are more than 100,000 asteroids larger than 1 kilometer in diameter, but these objects are distributed within the huge volume of the asteroid belt. Their average spacing is several million kilometers. Collisions are thus extremely rare; an average 1-kilometer asteroid suffers one collision every few billion years, or maybe one or two collisions over the lifetime of the solar system.

Spacecraft pass through the asteroid belt with virtually no chance of a collision, and in fact considerable effort is required for a close flyby of even one asteroid, such as the Galileo spacecraft flyby of Ida in 1993. The spacing is also so large that seen from one asteroid, even the nearest 1-kilometer asteroid would likely be too faint to be visible without a telescope.
 
Thanks for this thread.
I've been working on scripts for my fan series for some time. I'm really trying to adhere to a consistent stardate system, and a consistent travel time system, but goddamn that's tough.
The wall I've slammed into, is I'm trying to do a 2ly journey. My crew can do that in about 30 hours, and the enemy can do that in about a week. Not a big threat there...
 
Well, there may be ways to jazz it up.
Say that other craft stumbled across instantaneous communications and a network of sublight mines/monitors

Speed isn’t everything.

Let’s say the Germans of WWII had anti-gravity but little else that was modern…a few saucers. 100 miles up…no problem. They get in the troposphere and gen 5 fighters will eat them alive.
 
Scaling up the FASA-verse

According to FASA, the UFP has a diameter of 180 parsecs (587 light years) which, as we have covered, is too small. But if you’re a fan of the FASA-verse, here are two solutions for scaling it up to something better resembling the TOS on-screen reality.

Before we dig in, remember that my best-guess theory based on TOS proper has been a 1,900 ly diameter UFP centered on Earth. But FASA (following Star Trek Maps) places Earth some distance to the northwest of the UFP Central Navigation Beacon, and the particular Orion/Romulan/Klingon frontier which Enterprise explored is to the south and southeast. When using this setup, it means the UFP sphere itself should be smaller than 1,900 ly in diameter, in order for maintain fidelity to our more important assumptions regarding the distance from Earth to the border. Just still nowhere near as small as FASA would have it.

Solution #1

In this solution you simply increase distances such that 1 parsec is scaled up to 10 light years. The diameter of the UFP is now 1,800 light years. The grid lines on the map now represent 100 ly intervals, and planetary coordinates (eg., Talos at 7.49S 1.48E) are now in terms of hundreds of light years instead of tens of parsecs (which was always rather odd anyway).

The benefits of this approach are plain, as no math is required—all you have to do is move over the decimal point and call it light years. As we have seen, the TV show mainly prefers to give distances in terms of light years (or hundreds of light years) over parsecs anyway.

Indeed, this approach makes so much sense that I have to wonder if this actually was FASA’s intent at some early stage in the design process, before they decided to shrink things down to accommodate an ultra-slow warp factor scale.

Fun fact: In Discovery they actually speak the FASA coordinates for Talos aloud in the form of, “seven four nine mark one four eight.” Not to suddenly admit Discovery into evidence, but I am tickled by this. So they drop the decimal completely, and present quadrant is assumed.

Downside: Earth (1.23N 2.79W) and Rigel (8.51S 1.27E) end up being 1,055 ly distant, when in reality they ought to be 864 ly apart. This is much better than 105 pc (344 ly), but still off the mark.

Curiously: Star Trek Maps, upon which the FASA map is based, provides coordinates in three dimensions (in parsecs). Thus Earth (23.9, 61.8 0.0) and Rigel (-209.9, 7.7, -136) are 900 ly apart, which is fine. But if you ignore the third dimension (as FASA does), then it’s only 783 ly. Now, stick with me. If you scale up STM (480 pc diameter) to a 1,800 ly diameter, the distance from Earth to Rigel in two dimensions is...... 900 ly. Coincidence? Or have I indeed stumbled on a forgotten layer of FASA’s design process (before they broke everything)? I have to wonder.

Solution #2

In this solution you increase the distances by 8/3, that is, to the scale of Star Trek Maps. The UFP now has a 480 pc diameter rather than 180. Earth to Rigel is now 918 light years. This solution says, FASA really adds to the STM-verse in many ways, but goofed on the scale, so we’re just going to hit the undo button on that one thing.

Upside: STM is a masterpiece that nailed this 40+ years ago, so you’re not reinventing the wheel as in the other solution, and the end result is more accurate than the other solution. Also, by harmonizing the STM and FASA maps, you can draw freely from both (without converting to yet a third scale).

Downside: Well, you can’t use FASA’s coordinates and grid lines anymore. You have to do the math to calculate the new positions and/or distances. But if you’re the sort of person who has been following this thread, you might not mind that.
 
Thanks for this thread.
I've been working on scripts for my fan series for some time. I'm really trying to adhere to a consistent stardate system, and a consistent travel time system, but goddamn that's tough.
I used to do that when I was writing fanfics in the '90s. My ship didn't move at the speed of plot, but on a warp scale in which I just raised everything to the fifth power. i was a real stickler to how far the ship could move at normal cruising speed and maximum warp, so as my series progressed, I couldn't have my ship return to Earth to deal with an immediate threat back there and I was increasingly moving out of the neighborhoods of familiar Trek races like Klingons and Romulans as I was more or less on a beeline towards the outer reaches of Federation space and beyond.

I understand why writers fudge speeds and distances in Trek. If one truly adheres to them, they will become a limitation to the kinds of stories that could be told (in particular, those involving Earth and other prominent Trek worlds). So either have your ship stay fairly close to home or move at plot speed.
 
I used to do that when I was writing fanfics in the '90s. My ship didn't move at the speed of plot, but on a warp scale in which I just raised everything to the fifth power. i was a real stickler to how far the ship could move at normal cruising speed and maximum warp, so as my series progressed, I couldn't have my ship return to Earth to deal with an immediate threat back there and I was increasingly moving out of the neighborhoods of familiar Trek races like Klingons and Romulans as I was more or less on a beeline towards the outer reaches of Federation space and beyond.

I understand why writers fudge speeds and distances in Trek. If one truly adheres to them, they will become a limitation to the kinds of stories that could be told (in particular, those involving Earth and other prominent Trek worlds). So either have your ship stay fairly close to home or move at plot speed.
Or you can have a more active universe where there are other ships & crews nearby to solve issues instead of always depending on our protagonists.

You don't always need our protagonists to be the one to solve everything.

Competent Allies & Enemies makes a more interesting universe.
 
Or you can have a more active universe where there are other ships & crews nearby to solve issues instead of always depending on our protagonists.

You don't always need our protagonists to be the one to solve everything.
That was my solution, that my crew would hear about things going on back home and other ships that were back there saving the day. The downside was the series was basically VOY-lite, except instead of trying to get home, the ship was moving farther and farther away from home and becoming more and more isolated from the Star Trek Universe.
Competent Allies & Enemies makes a more interesting universe.
But it also makes your protagonists impotent whenever something big goes down. Because my ship was continually going "where no one has gone before," it was always too far away and missed out on a lot of "fun" elsewhere in the Galaxy.
 
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But it also makes your protagonists impotent whenever something big goes down. Because my ship was continually going "where no one has gone before," it was always too far away and missed out on a lot of "fun" elsewhere in the Galaxy.
They could always have their "own fun" with the new aliens that they meet out in the frontier.
 
Boo, no fun. ;)

Says who exactly?
The entertainment industry?
The entertainment's industry attempts at making innacurate portrayals of space for 'flashiness' is actually less fun if you ask me.
Science and real life can actually be made fun... its basically all in the delivery... and sans a few more recent attempts from some movies (such as Interstellar, etc. trying to inject real life science into the films), the industry hadn't actually tried making serious effort in providing simulation of real life in movies and making them fun for the audience.

When people are introduced with facts, they ofen have a similar opinion like you... 'boo, no fun'... but that's a preprogrammed response for the most part, and its factual than when you present data in a different capacity to the general population, they CAN (and generall DO) take a liking to it.
 
The Lower End of the Scale

I’ve been going through the TOS transcripts, taking notes on warp factors. Most episodes end with the Enterprise getting underway (often “out of orbit”) at WF 1 or 2. But those speeds are also mentioned frequently enough outside this. In the beginning of The Squire of Gothos, Kirk orders WF 3, saying, “Let’s get across this void in a hurry.” According to Friday’s Child, max speed for a freighter is WF 2. Based on these, I want to nudge the lower speeds high enough to be respectable travel speeds. I no longer agree with those who say that WF1-2 are purely for starting up, or calibration, or in-system travel.


The Final Refinement?

Here is my latest tweak of my WF scale. In light of the above, this is very similar to v. 3, but here I have turned away from purely analyzing the show and prioritize practicality for gaming. I’m pretty happy with the result.

wf9.png


As you can see, I have made my spreadsheet dynamic so I can now easily input the distance I want to calculate in various ways. If you see my map on p. 2 of this thread, my hexes are 2 ly across, and the entire map is 33 hexes across. Hence…

wf10.png


So what I really like about this is that WF 3-5 are all eminently practical for crawling a sector map, and I’m tickled pink that WF 6 lets you cleanly traverse exactly one whole map in exactly one day. This leaves WF 7-8 for crossing vast distances in an emergency.

You will also notice an added a column on the left for “energy units.” This is for use with the Starships & Spacemen game which I doubt will interest most of you. But just for those interested, each nacelle produces 100 EU/day, so at WF8+ you are really giving her all you’ve got and more, dipping into reserve power.
 
One of the benefits (IMHO) of having a higher speed at WF1-3 is that Impulse travel can take up the lower speeds. So Full Impulse could be like 100-300c. :) YMMV
 
One of the benefits (IMHO) of having a higher speed at WF1-3 is that Impulse travel can take up the lower speeds. So Full Impulse could be like 100-300c. :) YMMV
I just use Impulse speeds for travel within the Star System only.

Once you exit the Star System, FTL all the way BABY!
 
I agree with you, blssdwlf, it helps in stories where the warp drive/dilithium is busted and you need to crawl to a nearby planet under impulse (but it still only takes a number of days, not years).
 
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