Discussing Federation Imperialistic Policy

[Dumbbell]

The founding charter of the Federation implies expansion of its own principles to all and the requirement to act against violations, even violations of non-parties, as demonstrated in various exceptions to the Prime Directive. The Federation’s Omega Directive is a policy that indiscriminately creates an exception to the Prime Directive. Of course, the Federation generally agrees that its own violations of its own principles are somehow justified, unless it can find a scapegoat to court-martial.

The destructive power of an Omega molecule accident is highly overrated. Naturally, in order to encourage captains’ contrary behavior when effecting the Omega Directive. Furthermore, Omega detonations have already taken place, thus providing suitable spaces to continue testing. True, without warp speed accessing such test sites takes years. But you can be sure it is done. To scientists, a mere generation or two is peanuts compared to the endless benefits of harnessing the power of Omega for the good of all…

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The founding charter of the Federation implies expansion of its own principles to all and the requirement to act against violations, even violations of non-parties, as demonstrated in various exceptions to the Prime Directive. The Federation’s Omega Directive is a policy that indiscriminately creates an exception to the Prime Directive. Of course, the Federation generally agrees that its own violations of its own principles are somehow justified, unless it can find a scapegoat to court-martial.

The destructive power of an Omega molecule accident is highly overrated. Naturally, in order to encourage captains’ contrary behavior when effecting the Omega Directive. Furthermore, Omega detonations have already taken place, thus providing suitable spaces to continue testing. True, without warp speed accessing such test sites takes years. But you can be sure it is done. To scientists, a mere generation or two is peanuts compared to the endless benefits of harnessing the power of Omega for the good of all…

I'll have to disagree with you on the useful-ness of harnessing Omega.

I have to agree with the Omega Directive, given how dangerous it is, it's not worth it IMO to tamper with such things given the consequences.

Even testing it on a site you already know, we don't know how much worse the consequences are.

 

[1001001]

The Omega Directive makes total sense, if you think about the totality of potential consequences.

Millions of people stranded away from home forever. All trade across the galaxy stops.

A large scale Omega detonation would cause absolute devastation and death on an enormous scale.

 

[Dumbbell]

OK. Let me throw some bologna at you—bologna to you but tasty to me…

I agree that the Omega Directive makes sense. But it makes sense for a completely different reason. It is nothing less than an attempt to maintain a developmental monopoly on what will assuredly become the most significant development in Federation history up to now. The ramifications of being the first society to exclusively harness the power of the Omega molecule are incomprehensibly great. It would make the scientists who figured out matter/antimatter reactions look like cavemen striking steel with flint.

The Federation must be the first to perfect Omega or it will die. It cannot hope to survive simply by trying in vain to keep it a secret.

The practical applications of Omega technology would change motivations and the balance of power so significantly—. Imagine peace with all your hostile neighbors. Imagine a United Federation of Planets, the common wealth of which spans throughout the Delta and Gamma Quadrants. Imagine the complete elimination of the Borg threat. Imagine exploring strange new worlds in other galaxies with the greatest of ease.

But Omega detonations destroy subspace, making conventional warp travel through affected space impossible.

Not a big deal in the big picture.

The technology already exists to work around the problem of large volumes of space missing its subspace counterpart.

 

[Deks]

The Omega Directive makes total sense, if you think about the totality of potential consequences.

Millions of people stranded away from home forever. All trade across the galaxy stops.

A large scale Omega detonation would cause absolute devastation and death on an enormous scale.

Yes, but we've seen that Voyager crew was able to find a way to stabilize Omega using the Harmonic Resonance Chamber... and, once all molecules are stabilized, the danger of a massive Omega detonation pretty much evaporates to nothing.
Unstabilized Omega does present a danger to subspace though... but we've seen if a sufficient number of molecules are stabilized, a modified torpedo takes care of the rest.

It would probably take bit more study to reduce further chances of complications, but with a functional way of controlling Omega (which thanks to VOY, Starfleet now has), it probably wouldn't take long to expand on the simulated parameters and select a void region of space where you could experiment in relative safety with the molecule.

I think a bigger issue is finding enough Boromite Ore to synthesize the molecules.. but its possible replicators could technically create the necessary elements which make up the ore... then SF could combine those elements to create the ore itself, and then synthesize it into Omega.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yes, but we've seen that Voyager crew was able to find a way to stabilize Omega using the Harmonic Resonance Chamber... and, once all molecules are stabilized, the danger of a massive Omega detonation pretty much evaporates to nothing.

Yes, but that was only possible due to access to Borg and/or other Delta Quadrant species on Omega.

Which the Federation and Starfleet didn't have when they formulated the Directive. Therefore "do not do this thing, and take all efforts to stop anyone else from doing it" was the only rational choice at the time.

I also very much doubt that a standard replicator is the answer for Boromite ore, otherwise the Borg wouldn't have had resourcing issues with their experiments.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I still don't agree with the use of the word "imperialism" in regards to the Federation.

Like I said, the word "imperialism" implies a nefarious intent. Obviously the Federation is not such an organization, but let's face it, they are going to expand by some means. Have things really sunk so low that any political entity that expands AT ALL, regardless of how peacefully they do it, is automatically damned with the label "imperialist"?

I mean, let's say Puerto Rico, for example, petitions to be admitted to the United States as the 51st state. So therefore, the USA has expanded by one. Does this make them imperialist? Even if it's done in the most peaceful, harmless, legal way possible, with absolutely no ulterior motives?

Look, I'm not suggesting that the Federation (or even the US) is perfect. Obviously they're not. They're governments, just like any other, and even with the most benevolent of intentions, they're gonna make the occasional mistake. I just disagree with using loaded words like "imperialism" to describe any sort of expansion at all.

People these days expect all governments - real or fictional - to be perfect, and when they prove otherwise, here come the loaded labels. Is that really necessary?

 

[Deks]

Yes, but that was only possible due to access to Borg and/or other Delta Quadrant species on Omega.

Which the Federation and Starfleet didn't have when they formulated the Directive. Therefore "do not do this thing, and take all efforts to stop anyone else from doing it" was the only rational choice at the time.

I also very much doubt that a standard replicator is the answer for Boromite ore, otherwise the Borg wouldn't have had resourcing issues with their experiments.

Well, actually, VOY had access to 7 of 9 who designed harmonic resonance chamber.
The other species by itself synthesized Omega itself.
Otherwise, SF was able to synthesize its own Omega in the 23rd century for a fraction of a second.
I think in the 24th, synthesizing, stabilizing and controlling Omega based on everything VOY crew learned in the DQ would be eminently simpler/easier.

As for a standard replicator being the answer to the Boromite ore... well, replicators DO have the ability to synthesize complex elements.
Depending on the composition of Boromite ore, it might be possible for SF to replicate the elements separately and then create the ore... which would later be turned into Omega itself.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Well, actually, VOY had access to 7 of 9 who designed harmonic resonance chamber.

Which was the essential element in stabilising Omega.

Without the ability to do that, synthesing any Omega is very dangerous and mass manufacture is impossible.

Which is why banning it until stabilising technology is available was the right and prudent course.

Will that change once Starfleet gets the data on the HNC... maybe but I doubt it.

 

[Deks]

Which was the essential element in stabilising Omega.

Without the ability to do that, synthesing any Omega is very dangerous and mass manufacture is impossible.

Which is why banning it until stabilising technology is available was the right and prudent course.

Will that change once Starfleet gets the data on the HNC... maybe but I doubt it.

Ah ah ah...
Point being 7 of 9 already designed the Harmonic resonance chamber and all the data from what was done (and designs of the harmonic resonance chamber) in stabilizing Omega exists in VOY database and in the minds of the crew.

So, SF technically DOES have the ability to stabilize Omega, and doesn't need 7's help.
At this point, its a matter of being able to synthesize the molecules... and as I said, this could probably be achieved by replicating the complex elements which make up the ore, then processing the elements to make the ore, and finally convert the ore into the molecule itself.
Its a multi-step procedure, but I suspect that in absence of finding any ore, this would have to do.

Also, we really don't know if Starfleet's first unsuccessful attempt at synthesizing Omega in the 23rd century used any Boromite ore. We know the Borg used it... Ketteract (the scientists) might not have.
Its also possible that if Ketteract DID use the Boromite Ore, it could be more abundant in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants than in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Ah ah ah...
Point being 7 of 9 already designed the Harmonic resonance chamber and all the data from what was done (and designs of the harmonic resonance chamber) in stabilizing Omega exists in VOY database and in the minds of the crew.

So, SF technically DOES have the ability to stabilize Omega, and doesn't need 7's help.
At this point, its a matter of being able to synthesize the molecules... and as I said, this could probably be achieved by replicating the complex elements which make up the ore, then processing the elements to make the ore, and finally convert the ore into the molecule itself.
Its a multi-step procedure, but I suspect that in absence of finding any ore, this would have to do.

Also, we really don't know if Starfleet's first unsuccessful attempt at synthesizing Omega in the 23rd century used any Boromite ore. We know the Borg used it... Ketteract (the scientists) might not have.
Its also possible that if Ketteract DID use the Boromite Ore, it could be more abundant in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants than in the Delta Quadrant.

The main issue is that, if you fail, you create LARGE parts of space where you can't use Warp Drive anymore.

FTL becomes a impossibility.

So until you can repair damaged space, it's WAY too risky to mess with Omega Particles.

Find a way to fix the damage to Subspace, then we can talk about researching Omega Particles.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Ah ah ah...
Point being 7 of 9 already designed the Harmonic resonance chamber and all the data from what was done (and designs of the harmonic resonance chamber) in stabilizing Omega exists in VOY database and in the minds of the crew.

Yes, which as I've said might and maybe even should have an effect on the Omega Directive after Stardate 51781.2.

But it is irrevelevant to the question as to whether the Omega Directive was necessary before Stardate 51781.2... it was.

 

[Dumbbell]

Find a way to fix the damage to Subspace, then we can talk about researching Omega Particles.

The technology already exists. It just has to be applied to the problem.

Step 1. Eject warp core into the dead zone.

Step 2. Fire isolytic torpedo and detonate it just before it enters the dead zone.

Step 3. Watch the resulting subspace tear pull subspace into the dead zone after the warp core.

Step 4. Detonate warp core when subspace has reached your desired destination.

Congratulation! Now you have a subspace coridor to your location!

Interestingly, isolytic torpedoes are banned too. Coincidence? I don’t think so…

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The technology already exists. It just has to be applied to the problem.

Step 1. Eject warp core into the dead zone.

Step 2. Fire isolytic torpedo and detonate it just before it enters the dead zone.

Step 3. Watch the resulting subspace tear pull subspace into the dead zone after the warp core.

Step 4. Detonate warp core when subspace has reached your desired destination.

Congratulation! Now you have a subspace coridor to your location!

Interestingly, isolytic torpedoes are banned too. Coincidence? I don’t think so…

Can you now form a Warp Field in that Dead Zone area and use traditional Warp Drive? Yes/No?

 

[Dumbbell]

Can you now form a Warp Field in that Dead Zone area and use traditional Warp Drive? Yes/No?

The theory is sound. We'd still have to experiment.

We do know that an isolytic burst can tear space right to subspace. We also know that the tear manifests attraction to a warp core. We also know that the detonation of a warp core can seal the tear.

So, in theory, we can send a warp core into the dead zone, use an isolytic burst to tear open space to allow subspace to spill out. The tear will follow the warp core until we detonate the core, which seals the tear. In theory, we will have created a river of subspace from the ocean of it to the point of warp core detonation.

With this subspace coridor, we should be able to use conventional warp drive again.

 

[Dumbbell]

I still don't agree with the use of the word "imperialism" in regards to the Federation.

You know what? I like your idea better. I'm with you.

 

[publiusr]

Even Omega may have its uses. Cthulhloid swarms stopped cold and held to a pocket of space with no FTL secures the galaxy.

 

[Deks]

The theory is sound. We'd still have to experiment.

We do know that an isolytic burst can tear space right to subspace. We also know that the tear manifests attraction to a warp core. We also know that the detonation of a warp core can seal the tear.

So, in theory, we can send a warp core into the dead zone, use an isolytic burst to tear open space to allow subspace to spill out. The tear will follow the warp core until we detonate the core, which seals the tear. In theory, we will have created a river of subspace from the ocean of it to the point of warp core detonation.

With this subspace coridor, we should be able to use conventional warp drive again.

There is a bit of a problem with that I think.
We know Omega destroys subspace.
How can you create a tear in subspace in an area where subspace was destroyed (aka, there is none to work with)?
Basically, what would happen is you detonate the islytic burst, but in an area where subspace was destroyed, no tear would form.

In fact, even reaching a sufficiently dense area of the Dead Zone (depending on its size) would be impractical because weapons use subspace properties to radically enhance their destructive effects by orders of magnitude, and also to lower their own inertial mass so they can traverse extreme distances.

No subspace = no ability for the burst to produce a desired effect... in fact, if a starship uses subspace technology, that would also be nullified in the absence of subspace itself.

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a tear in subspace near the 'Dead Zone' (aka on the very edge), and allow subspace to spill out (possibly also controlling the spillage so it goes directly into the Dead Zone)?
It would be like an bleeding wound... except in this case, the wound would be bleeding subspace... and it would have to be directed towards the Dead Zone.

I was also going to suggest a 'suture' method of repairing the Dead Zone similar to what VOY did to regenerate the barrier in that cloud creature... however, if a ship is (or multiple ships are) in the Dead Zone, and they need subspace to connect to each other and also to effectively reach the edges of the Dead Zone, it wouldn't work for the same reason - no subspace to work with.

This I think would only work if Starfleet were to implement the method from the Dead Zone edge where subspace is intact.
It would have to work from the outside to progressively shrink the Dead Zone.

We know subspace can work at FTL, but lets say you have a Dead Zone the size of a solar system inside the actual Solar System.
You'd basically need to send multiple ships (maybe 12 - 24 since one can easily affect subspace in a farily large area), position them around the solar system and have them create a subspace spillage which would be directed into the solar system in question to fill the Dead Zone and subsequently seal the rifts once enough subspace has seeped through to fill the Dead Zone.

Also, its possible subspace is self-replicating of sorts... pretty much like blood.

 

[Dumbbell]

Wouldn't it make more sense to create a tear in subspace near the 'Dead Zone' (aka on the very edge), and allow subspace to spill out (possibly also controlling the spillage so it goes directly into the Dead Zone)?

Yes. See Step 2 in previous post above.

 

[at Quark's]

Most 'empires' (or federations, or whatever) have a desire for continued existence that doesn't need a deeper justification. I wonder how that is for the Federation.

So suppose the Federation meets a more evolved, and larger counterpart that offers the Federation to become part of their SuperFederation and cease existing as a separate entity. Ideologies do not match for 100% but they do for, say 80%-85% or so (just to keep the scenario interesting). So, rationally, there probably wouldn't be overarching reasons to reject the offer.

Would the Federation happily disband and join the SuperFederation, or would a planet like Earth secretly resent no longer being the capital and try to influence votes to keep existing as an independent entity?