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Discussing Federation Imperialistic Policy

Yes, I can.

Because that's simply not what Section 31 does. They deal with threats to the Federation, not worlds that simply haven't yet joined.
Section 31's first and foremost priority is to ensure the safety and prosperity of the Federation. If there was a planet deemed to be capable of contributing to the safety and prosperity of the Federation if they joined that wasn't interested in joining, Section 31 would totally be all over that making sure said planet joined.
Besides, if S31 threatened or cajoled a world into joining, the truth would come out. And they wouldn't want that.
Section 31 doesn't "threaten or cajole," they manipulate clandestinely.
 
It's possible that a highly-placed Federation official or maybe a Starfleet admiral who has clandestine connections with S31 could drop some hints their way, without the knowledge or approval of the Federation Council. But S31 might not do a thing about it, if they don't think it's actually in the best interests of the Federation as determined by them and them alone.

Kor

But if Section 31 thinks that having [X] join the Federation would be in the best interest of the Federation for any number of reasons (resource wealth, expanding borders to offset enemy expansion, kneecapping a potential rival, gaining technology), then they would absolutely twist their arms to gain that new member, regardless of what the Council thinks or knows.
 
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But if Section 31 thinks that having [X] join the Federation would be in the best interest of the Federation for any number of reasons (resource wealth, expanding borders to offset enemy expansion, kneecapping a potential rival, gaining technology), then they would absolutely twist their arms to gain that new member, regardless of what the Council thinks or knows.
But Section 31 should be doing things from the Shadows, autonomously.

That's the purpose of a "Clandestine Spy Agency".

Kind of like SD-6 from the Alias TV series, but Section 31 works for the benefit of the UFP / StarFleet.
 
The Federation has its official Starfleet Intelligence. Section 31 was supposedly a division of it. However, it was disbanded. Apparently, though, it continues to operate somewhat autonomously.

No doubt Starfleet Intelligence is a superior organization in terms of acquired intelligence and counterintelligence output. Section 31 is more like a self-appointed watchdog that somehow remains a thorn.
 
The way UFP was portrayed... it expands, yes, but it doesn't do that like empires would.

In fact, from what I can tell, Humans, Andorians, Vulcans and Tellarites saw the need to form the UFP which started off as a coalition (based on mutual protection) against threats such as the Romulans.

When the UFP charter was created, Humanity likely played a great part in shaping core values, probably because they managed to create a new society in mere 50 years following WWIII and weren't 'burdened' with vestiges of outdated ways of thinking. Its possible the other founding members encountered a stumbling block in this particular area that Humans were able to overcome.

We know humans eradicated poverty, hunger, disease and war... other races at large may have had some aspects of those remaining on their planets... and Humanity was also advancing very fast on the technological/scientific side as well.

Obviously, while Humanity may have had a large role, other founding members contributed quite a lot as well.

My point is that when UFP was founded, the core values of the organisation is what serve as an appealing factor for other species to join up.

UFP doesn't necessarily seek out species to join up, the species seek them out because the prospect is so appealing.

And in order to qualify, prospective species need to satisfy certain criteria:
1. They need to be FTL capable.
2. They have to bring their planet into 'alignment' so that the planet as a whole is willing to join (not just say 60% of the planet that has a larger 'nation').
3. No caste system as that has a tendency to breed discrimination among other things.

In essence, for some species, societal reforms would need to be dealt with to ensure the planet is ready to join.

An exception was made in case of the Bajorans because the UFP couldn't actively start a war with the Cardassians to liberate Bajor, but once the Cardassians were driven out, the UFP stepped in quickly and from a political perspective created a safety net for Bajor to prevent the Cardassians from returning and enslaving the Bajorans again.

This in turn gave Bajor the needed time to recover from the occupation.
Bajorans already ticked numerous things on the UFP checklist.
They were warp capable, and on a social level had their society pretty much in line with what UFP expected... but they couldn't just swoop in and have Bajor join because that would seem indeed like yet another invasion, and Bajor was given a choice during DS9 run to consider the premise if joining the UFP would be beneficial or not (after the population and planet have sufficiently recovered).

The only case where I can think of UFP bending the rules was after the Dominion War (likely) where the Enterprise-E hosted a party for that species which achieved Warp capability a year prior (Star Trek Insurrection).
Troi mentioned something that the UFP council decided to make them into a protectorate so quickly with Picard responding: "In view of our losses to the Borg and the Dominion, the Council feels we need all the allies we can get these days."

The only thing I can see here is that the UFP merely accelerated the process of this particular species joining to include their resources in help of its own recovery.
So in this particular scenario, its possible the UFP made an exception and approached this species first as opposed to waiting for the species to come to them.
But I don't think the UFP would be turning this into regular practice.

So, no, I don't get the notion the UFP is an imperialistic regime at all.

As for Edington... I share the premise that he was full of himself and probably didn't entirely understand how the UFP worked.
Also, considering the fact he wasn't in a position to negotiate with the Cardassians and that cooler heads needed to prevail during diplomatic talks to avoid a confrontation, he was also frustrated with the situation that he couldn't steer things into a direction of his choosing... which probably would have resulted in more losses down the line.

The UFP may not always get perfect deals (in fact, WHEN did they actually get a perfect deal during negotiations?)... but it also has a greater whole to consider.
 
Troi mentioned something that the UFP council decided to make them into a protectorate so quickly

And that may be merely a case of the Federation placing that world within its space (without actually forcing it to join) so that Federation forces can defend the planet if need be.

Even so, "making them a protectorate" doesn't imply force. Maybe the planet wanted so badly to join up, that the Federation decided to speed up the process.
 
And that may be merely a case of the Federation placing that world within its space (without actually forcing it to join) so that Federation forces can defend the planet if need be.

Even so, "making them a protectorate" doesn't imply force. Maybe the planet wanted so badly to join up, that the Federation decided to speed up the process.

Indeed.

I would imagine that a 'protectorate' would have in this case meant the same thing as it did for Bajor.
UFP sends an administration team to establish diplomatic relations and help the species fulfill any other criteria if the purpose is to turn them into a member while simultaneously preventing other potentially hostile species from getting in (due to the presence of the Federation there - its essentially their equivalent of politics).

Its definitely not an application of force in any sense of the word. More like a preemptive decision to prevent this species from being abused by other powers who were weakened as a result of the Dominion War.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't think UFP had its own ulterior motive for wanting this species to join up to aid itself... but the circumstances (overall hostile environment from the war etc.) probably prompted this and the said species apparently WANTED to join UFP, so the UFP merely accelerated the process and placed them as a protectorate planet as it was also in a position where having another member would be considered a good thing.
 
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The way UFP was portrayed... it expands, yes, but it doesn't do that like empires would.

Federation strategy is different from its competitors. That is what gives the Federation a competitive edge. Many of its competitors emphasize expansion by military force. The Federation maintains a formidable military force but emphasizes expansion by diplomacy as a countermeasure to competitor expansion. We are looking at two sides (strategies) of the very same coin (imperialism).

Both the charter of the UFP and its Prime Directive embody policy that demands an equal and opposite reaction to the imperialism of its competitors. For example, see the TOS episode “A Private Little War.” It is the very necessity of becoming like your enemy in order to defeat him, or preventing him from doing further damage to yourself or others!

Now, as to “empire,” the United Federation of Planets is exactly that. It is a massive commercial empire of planetary union states that voluntarily submit independence to the authority of one governing body. Again, Federation strategy is different from its competitors. Many of its competitors pillage and rape the economies of subjugated worlds in order to add to the wealth of the governor or governing body and its military force. The Federation maintains massive wealth but shares technological developments that help bring members up to par with a united economic standard all the while maintaining a formidable military force. Again, we are looking at two sides (strategies) of the very same coin (imperialism).
 
Federation strategy is different from its competitors. That is what gives the Federation a competitive edge. Many of its competitors emphasize expansion by military force. The Federation maintains a formidable military force but emphasizes expansion by diplomacy as a countermeasure to competitor expansion. We are looking at two sides (strategies) of the very same coin (imperialism).

Both the charter of the UFP and its Prime Directive embody policy that demands an equal and opposite reaction to the imperialism of its competitors. For example, see the TOS episode “A Private Little War.” It is the very necessity of becoming like your enemy in order to defeat him, or preventing him from doing further damage to yourself or others!

Now, as to “empire,” the United Federation of Planets is exactly that. It is a massive commercial empire of planetary union states that voluntarily submit independence to the authority of one governing body. Again, Federation strategy is different from its competitors. Many of its competitors pillage and rape the economies of subjugated worlds in order to add to the wealth of the governor or governing body and its military force. The Federation maintains massive wealth but shares technological developments that help bring members up to par with a united economic standard all the while maintaining a formidable military force. Again, we are looking at two sides (strategies) of the very same coin (imperialism).

Actually, species that join UFP do not seem to 'submit independence'. They simply become a part of a larger whole... a growing community of sorts that shares similar views and benefit from a non-monetary socio-economic system where open sharing of resources, science and technology is commonplace (as is emphasis on equality, equity, etc.) - main purpose of which is to become better than what they were before.

In essence, species in UFP get a chance to get to know each other and live among each other as they would on their own home planets... no restrictions on travel, living or even contributing to society as a whole, no fear of internal wars, no restrictions on inter-species coupling either (unless there's a biological barrier... but even then the UFP will try to break through that barrier and make it possible).

And while some newcomer species may take time to adjust, the criteria a species must meet for joining the UFP at large is probably why its there. To give the planet time to adapt to the notion of UFP - and not only that, but various individuals are likely welcome to experience life in UFP (similar to how we saw in the Kelvin Timeline on the Yorktown starbase - I'm pretty sure the exact same design exists in the Prime timeline too and is used for the same thing though).

What's also interesting is the fact that UFP as such doesn't dictate policy on the member species homeworlds... that's left to their local governing bodies as its always been - and as such, if a species runs things in a given capacity, UFP won't interfere with that so long as it doesn't hurt societies and individuals at large.

Furthermore, while majority of whatever space craft and habitats a spacefaring species has does become absorbed into Starfleet, those who have no ties to the local space agencies or militaries of their home planets retain their independence.

Even Vulcans were shown to still have entirely Vulcan run ships under the high command (not Starfleet). However, officers can still be freely be transferred from one to the other if a decision is made.

Also, as its been demonstrated in Trek, humanity learned that large (and hostile) empires exist and will probably do whatever it takes to expand eventually everywhere and conquer things by force.

Independent species might not be able to stay independent and retain their freedom unless they join the UFP. And this isn't something the UFP is forcing either.
Its just how the galaxy was shown to work in Trek.
So, UFP is there and it allows species the ability to maintain their freedom while becoming a part of a larger whole.

Oh and we also have examples in Trek where a species was DENIED joining the Federation because the situation on the planet was bad to say the least. The planet was anything but unified and hadn't really worked together.

If UFP was truly imperiealist, wouldn't it try to absorb pre-warp species?
We know UFP doesn't do that. It may study them yes, and is there to initiate FC procedures when they achieve FTL capacity... but otherwise, if they want to be left alone, the UFP leaves them alone.

As for the Federation maintainging a formidable miliary force.
It was already mentioned by several SF officers that SF is NOT a military organisation. They just don't see themselves like that.
Its a defensive and exploratory arm of the Federation.
Also, just because SF has tens of thousands of ships in the 24th century, it doesn't necessarily make it an empire.
The number of ships is there for exploration and defensive purposes only.
They use weapons purely for self-defense (aka, they don't fire first).

And to be fair, the Milky Way in Trek if filled with hostile species as is... UFP would need an adequate amount of starships to protect itself and continue its exploration efforts.

I think people are too bogged down with current day descriptions and try to transpose those on Trek and UFP because that's the only thing they are familiar with for the most part.

Heck, usually when SF was described in militaristic terms, it came from other species (the Klingons, Cardassians, romulans and Dominion for example)... not SF itself.
And to be fair, those other species are highly militarized and imperialistic.

A distinction needs to be made... so I don't think its as simple as saying the UFP is another side of the same coin.
 
OK. I think we are talking about two different UFP’s. But for the sake of argument...

Members that join the UFP must submit their independence otherwise they would remain independent. They cannot both join and not join. However, they do reserve the right to disassociate themselves from the Federation as the Federation reserves the right to deny membership and expel disqualified members. And the Federation does not assume the right to govern the planetary politics of member worlds but does govern the Federation by means of its Council, which represents all of its submissive members. As such, the burden is on members themselves to maintain a certain political status quo on their own worlds in order to remain qualified to voluntarily submit to membership requirements, such as sharing.

The Federation’s economy is the most powerful in the known galaxy. Far from non-monetary, UFP members represent the richest people ever known. Within the Federation, most exchange takes place without cash money but with heavily government supervised production the purpose of which is to produce the highest standard equilibrium possible while still maintaining a massive fleet of armed starships that could dwarf any individual member’s private fleet. Economy is evident in every episode and demonstrates that the Federation is so rich that it has reached the saturation point where everyone has basic needs that are satisfied. But not everyone can own their own skyscraper, starship, or planet. So there is economy, just not a poor one like most of us live with today. Furthermore, the Federation is home to myriad merchants and Merchant Marines that can exist only with at least marginal profit. Interaction outside the Federation also often demands cash money of various types, money that is best spent in fair foreign exchange rather than simply given away.

Given these circumstances, we can see that Federation policy guarantees the continued growth of the Federation in that membership qualifications disallow unprofitable ventures with cultures that have yet to demonstrate something worth contributing to the greater economic equilibrium of the Federation. For example, no warp, no membership. You don’t want to join and share, fine: no membership.

Sure, many of the UFP’s neighbors are hostile toward the Federation. Why would another empire be so hostile to such a rich, peace-keeping, voluntary group of relentless explorers who send in the diplomats but are ready to defend whatever the diplomats can acquire?

Easy.

What the Federation calls exploring, its competitors call trespassing.
 
What the Federation calls exploring, its competitors call trespassing
Depends on how far you claim your territorial space and how well you defend it or communicate it.

Even though my UFP / StarFleet has Cloaking tech by the 26th century, as the SOP (Standard Operating Procedure), StarFleet and all governmental branches don't use Cloaking when exploring or in Non Combat Operations with a few exceptions.

Cloaking is only used during WarTime, Tactical Combat Operations, Strategic Warfare Operations, or Exploring Primitive Pre-Warp civilizations and using Cloaking to study them on a Scientific/Sociologial/Historical/Anthropological level that doesn't interfere with the Pre-Warp civilizations culture.

Other than those circumstances, you are not to use your Cloaking Devices.
 
LOL. So, other than when we're trespassing, we're not trespassing... I like it. :lol:
 
If you want StarFleet to not trespass into your territory, all you had to do was ask.

Janeway complied many times when told where a Stellar Government's border was located.
 
I guess I'm still a bit flummoxed by the word "imperialism" being ascribed to the Federation.

"Imperialism" implies evil intent. I think we can all agree that the Federation does not operate that way. So why use such a loaded word? :confused:
 
I guess I'm still a bit flummoxed by the word "imperialism" being ascribed to the Federation.

"Imperialism" implies evil intent. I think we can all agree that the Federation does not operate that way. So why use such a loaded word?
It depends on who's ascribing them.

Michael Eddington thought of the UFP like the Borg.

Yet we're the farthest thing from being "The Borg".
 
It seems like the Federation's requirements seem to amount to the fact that civilizations have to be self-sufficient before being admitted to the Federation. The Federation will help a warp capable civilization on important matters but the civilization would need to stand on its own before officially becoming a member. Not to mention the fact that the civilization would need to match the Federation's core values before being considered for admittance.
 
I guess I'm still a bit flummoxed by the word "imperialism" being ascribed to the Federation.

It is not that the Federation is an evil imperialistic regime. However, by necessity, some of its policies are intrinsically imperialistic, such as its founding charter, exceptions to the Prime Directive, and the Omega Directive.
 
However, by necessity, some of its policies are intrinsically imperialistic, such as its founding charter, exceptions to the Prime Directive, and the Omega Directive.

Explain.

The Omega Directive, for example, is justified because an Omega disaster would destroy subspace itself - making warp travel and FTL communications impossible, for all spacefaring races (whether or not they are Federation members). Given that, I can understand why the Federation would act to avoid it at all costs.
 
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