Discovery Size Argument™ thread

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes they lie about it all the time.

Starfleet does not lie.

The whole thing is set up like the US coast Guard

Or the Chinese Coast Guard, or the British Coast Guard, or the Australian Coast Guard, or the Russian Coast Guard, or the Indonesia Coast Guard, or the JMSDF, all of which are statutory non-military organizations. They're also setup like many police forces around the country, which are if anything MORE like a military than Starfleet with the increasing popularity of "threat elimination" rules of engagement.

You guys can keep ignoring facts

The only fact that is being ignored here is the fact that Starfleet officers in three different centuries have explicitly said the organization they work for is not a military organization. You can either reject this fact, or you can accept it and use it to shape your interpretations. That you would PREFER to do the former doesn't make you right.

The US Coast Guard is 100% a branch of the United States military

The Federation is not the United States. And in almost every other country EXCEPT the United States, this is not the case.

It's not even clear the concept of "military" actually means anything in the Star Trek universe. We have this really curious example in the case of the Ship of the Dead being stranded for six months and nobody bothers to send a salvage ship or a repair ship until Kol shows up and tells them "We need you back in the fight." This seriously begs the question of whether or not the Ship of the Dead is even a military vessel or part of the Empire's supply chain...

Until you realize there's no such thing as the Klingon military. Strictly speaking, there's no such thing as a Klingon civilian. If you can't fight, you're a slave. If you AREN'T fighting, you better have a damn good reason for it. The Great Houses seem to be waging this entire war with privately-owned ships and weapons to the point that L'Rell is able to muster an entire battlecruiser -- if not a GROUP of them -- just by calling in a favor from her aunts and uncles in House Mokai. It's literally the same situation the U.S. was facing against the Pashtun rebels in Afghanistan; the Taliban doesn't "have" a military wing, it's just a bunch of assholes with a shit ton of guns and a tendency to hold grudges.

More and more data comes in from Trek canon that tells us that by the 23rd century the word "military" has become an adjective and has ceased to be a noun. That is, most planets do not have a "thing" called a military, they have a CATEGORY of things that fall under the definition of "military things." For people like the Klingons and the Romulans, EVERYTHING is a military thing, so the distinction doesn't really mean anything to them.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Starfleet does not lie.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha, Oh gods have you watched star trek?

[/quote]
Or the Chinese Coast Guard, or the British Coast Guard, or the Australian Coast Guard, or the Russian Coast Guard, or the Indonesia Coast Guard, or the JMSDF, all of which are statutory non-military organizations. They're also setup like many police forces around the country, which are if anything MORE like a military than Starfleet with the increasing popularity of "threat elimination" rules of engagement.
[/quote]

It was based off the US coast guard. It was stated we all know this, they mimic the US coast guard in pretty much every way except they have more classes of warship. This is a silly reach to claim a US based show in 1966 was based off anything other than a US service.

The only fact that is being ignored here is the fact that Starfleet officers in three different centuries have explicitly said the organization they work for is not a military organization. You can either reject this fact, or you can accept it and use it to shape your interpretations. That you would PREFER to do the former doesn't make you right.

Yep, they lie a lot.Its a self lie, I notice you never tried to c ounter my list.

The Federation is not the United States. And in almost every other country EXCEPT the United States, this is not the case.

It was based of the US military. The names of the damned ships are English and based of the US military , Not the "USS" Which makes zero sense. You are reaching something bad here.

I am not even gonna try to counter your claim there is no such thing as a military as the screen shows us there is. Go on counter my 5 points, we both know you can not.

 

[Tuskin38]

Maybe the human definition of military changed 300 years in the future.

A military to them might mean a force that was made only for combat. No exploration, no scientific missions, just combat.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha, Oh gods have you watched star trek?

Have YOU? Because lying about things is literally the one consistent sign that a Starfleet officer has gone off the rails and is either a bad guy or working for the bad guys in some way. Another quote by Jean Luc Picard goes "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth."

Not to mention, that is not a lie that is particularly easy to sell to the kinds of people they would need to tell it to. A lot of militaristic and/or primitive societies have this consistent "Yeah, right" reaction to this statement (Degara's "These scans are remarkably detailed for a military vessel!" is easily the earliest example of this).

Or the Chinese Coast Guard, or the British Coast Guard, or the Australian Coast Guard, or the Russian Coast Guard, or the Indonesia Coast Guard, or the JMSDF, all of which are statutory non-military organizations. They're also setup like many police forces around the country, which are if anything MORE like a military than Starfleet with the increasing popularity of "threat elimination" rules of engagement.

It was based off the US coast guard.

No, it was based on the U.S. Navy, back when "The Cage" was being written and filmed. That depiction has evolved a lot in 50 years, and it was Rodenberry himself who pushed for most of those changes. I have said FOR YEARS this was a questionable creative choice and it is one of the problems I have with the TNG era Trek, but it's canon now and we're stuck with it, and subsequent writers consistently refuse to retcon it away (Discovery included) so we have to try and make sense of it.

Its a self lie, I notice you never tried to c ounter my list.

Your list is unimportant. The definition of "military" is a legal one, not a structural one. A police department that had all of those characteristics would still be a police department and not a land army. This has to do with what the organization is chartered to DO, not what it is capable of doing in an emergency.

USS Discovery is the ultimate example of this. The ship is a prototype for a new drive system and is, explicitly, a science vessel. Lorca himself laments at the fact that most of his crew are scientists and researchers. And yet in the fourth episode we see him running battle drills to whip this bunch of wide-eyed nerds into combat shape.

Why does Starleet send science ships into combat in the first place? Because science vessels are their BEST ships for the job. Because 99% of the really dangerous things in the universe are not "military" threats by nature. Things like space amoebas, hyper-intelligent probes with abandonment issues, incorporeal demigods and planet-eating monsters don't really lend themselves to conventional military solutions. If you lived in a world where your country was as likely as not to be attacked by sentient hurricanes, pissed off mermaids, or ancient serial killers reincarnated in the form of a swarm of goddamn bees, you would need an organization whose specialization is "Dealing with really weird shit and making it go away." That's what Starfleet IS: it's NOAA in a universe where hurricanes can be reasoned with, where marine life forms hold grudges, where volcanos are preventable but their next of kin will seek revenge if you stop them. You don't need a military for that kind of world, you need a corps of scientists with gigantic balls.

I am not even gonna try to counter your claim there is no such thing as a military as the screen shows us there is.

As I said, it's not that simple. But you're firmly in the "Fuck your nuance, support the troops!" camp, so i'm sort of wasting my breath, yes?

Go on counter my 5 points, we both know you can not.

Nor do I need to. Again, even police departments can fit those five criterion without actually being a military organization.

 

[Tuskin38]

Here are examples of characters referring to Starfleet as a military directly or indirectly

TOS: Errand of Mercy:
KIRK: Gentlemen, I must get you to reconsider. We can be of immense help to you. In addition to military aid, we can send you specialists, technicians.

TOS: The Day of the Dove:
MCCOY: How many more men must die before you two begin to act like military men instead of fools? (leaves)

TOS: Whom Gods Destroy:
GARTH: Upon the firmest of foundations, Mister Spock. Enlightened self interest. You, Captain, are second only to me as the finest military commander in the galaxy.

Wrath of Khan:
DAVID: I knew it! I knew it! All along the military has wanted to get their han...
DAVID: I've tried to tell you before. Scientists have always been pawns of the military.

Final Frontier:
KIRK: General Korrd's military strategies were required learning when I was a cadet at the Academy. When they put me out to pasture, I hope I fare better than Korrd.

TNG: The Icarus Factor
PICARD (Talking to Riker): That's why they're asking for you. Not for your military proficiency, but for your skill as an explorer and as a diplomat.

DS9: Homefront
JARESH-INYO: I'm sure they have. But I hope you'll keep in mind that this is Earth, and not a military installation.

DS9: Paradise Lost
SISKO: What you're trying to do is to seize control of Earth and place it under military rule.
SISKO: Do you think other Federation worlds are going to sit back and let their President be replaced by a military dictatorship?

DS9: The Sons of Mogh
SISKO: Tell them that the ship is conducting military exercises according to interstellar agreements.


We're really getting off topic now, should probably move this discussion to the appropriate thread.

 

[bigglesworth]

Maybe the human definition of military changed 300 years in the future.

A military to them might mean a force that was made only for combat. No exploration, no scientific missions, just combat.

This...

I had to look this up, but the word military (as both a noun and as an adjective) originally meant soldiers, as in land forces in the late 16th century. That definition changed over the years to include sea and air based forces.

Based on our 21st century understanding of the word, Starfleet is a military organization as in they are the armed forces of the Federation. Much like today's armed forces, Starfleet employs personnel trained for combat, weapon systems, a command structure and their own judicial system.

Obviously the definition of military continues to evolve so that by the 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries, the term military does not describe Starfleet.

It's a nuanced argument but IMHO both camps are right and both are wrong. Starfleet both is and is not a military based on how you define the term "military".

 

[Longinus]

This is ultimately a semantic issue. Starfleet is not a military in a sense that military operations were its sole or even primary purpose, it is a military in a sense that is is capable of performing military operations.

 

[jaime]

Starfleet does not lie.


Or the Chinese Coast Guard, or the British Coast Guard, or the Australian Coast Guard, or the Russian Coast Guard, or the Indonesia Coast Guard, or the JMSDF, all of which are statutory non-military organizations. They're also setup like many police forces around the country, which are if anything MORE like a military than Starfleet with the increasing popularity of "threat elimination" rules of engagement.



The only fact that is being ignored here is the fact that Starfleet officers in three different centuries have explicitly said the organization they work for is not a military organization. You can either reject this fact, or you can accept it and use it to shape your interpretations. That you would PREFER to do the former doesn't make you right.


The Federation is not the United States. And in almost every other country EXCEPT the United States, this is not the case.

It's not even clear the concept of "military" actually means anything in the Star Trek universe. We have this really curious example in the case of the Ship of the Dead being stranded for six months and nobody bothers to send a salvage ship or a repair ship until Kol shows up and tells them "We need you back in the fight." This seriously begs the question of whether or not the Ship of the Dead is even a military vessel or part of the Empire's supply chain...

Until you realize there's no such thing as the Klingon military. Strictly speaking, there's no such thing as a Klingon civilian. If you can't fight, you're a slave. If you AREN'T fighting, you better have a damn good reason for it. The Great Houses seem to be waging this entire war with privately-owned ships and weapons to the point that L'Rell is able to muster an entire battlecruiser -- if not a GROUP of them -- just by calling in a favor from her aunts and uncles in House Mokai. It's literally the same situation the U.S. was facing against the Pashtun rebels in Afghanistan; the Taliban doesn't "have" a military wing, it's just a bunch of assholes with a shit ton of guns and a tendency to hold grudges.

More and more data comes in from Trek canon that tells us that by the 23rd century the word "military" has become an adjective and has ceased to be a noun. That is, most planets do not have a "thing" called a military, they have a CATEGORY of things that fall under the definition of "military things." For people like the Klingons and the Romulans, EVERYTHING is a military thing, so the distinction doesn't really mean anything to them.

That’s a really cool reading, especially of the Klingons military stance.

 

[jaime]

This...

I had to look this up, but the word military (as both a noun and as an adjective) originally meant soldiers, as in land forces in the late 16th century. That definition changed over the years to include sea and air based forces.

Based on our 21st century understanding of the word, Starfleet is a military organization as in they are the armed forces of the Federation. Much like today's armed forces, Starfleet employs personnel trained for combat, weapon systems, a command structure and their own judicial system.

Obviously the definition of military continues to evolve so that by the 22nd, 23rd and 24th centuries, the term military does not describe Starfleet.

It's a nuanced argument but IMHO both camps are right and both are wrong. Starfleet both is and is not a military based on how you define the term "military".

But, by their definition, they are not, since that’s what they have said.

 

[David cgc]

The definition of "military" is a legal one, not a structural one. A police department that had all of those characteristics would still be a police department and not a land army. This has to do with what the organization is chartered to DO, not what it is capable of doing in an emergency.

USS Discovery is the ultimate example of this. The ship is a prototype for a new drive system and is, explicitly, a science vessel. Lorca himself laments at the fact that most of his crew are scientists and researchers. And yet in the fourth episode we see him running battle drills to whip this bunch of wide-eyed nerds into combat shape.

Why does Starleet send science ships into combat in the first place? Because science vessels are their BEST ships for the job. Because 99% of the really dangerous things in the universe are not "military" threats by nature. Things like space amoebas, hyper-intelligent probes with abandonment issues, incorporeal demigods and planet-eating monsters don't really lend themselves to conventional military solutions. If you lived in a world where your country was as likely as not to be attacked by sentient hurricanes, pissed off mermaids, or ancient serial killers reincarnated in the form of a swarm of goddamn bees, you would need an organization whose specialization is "Dealing with really weird shit and making it go away." That's what Starfleet IS: it's NOAA in a universe where hurricanes can be reasoned with, where marine life forms hold grudges, where volcanos are preventable but their next of kin will seek revenge if you stop them. You don't need a military for that kind of world, you need a corps of scientists with gigantic balls.

Somebody needs to attach this as an appendix to the "humans take the lead in Starfleet because of lateral thinking" post.

 

[Brainsucker]

They are 100% a branch of the US military and has been involved in every single war.Look it up, they are a branch of the US military.

They have warships, many have been decommissioned over the last few years, but they have purpose built warships.

They are indeed a military. They use military ranks, a military academy, a military code of justice and have the responsibility for protecting the federation and defending it during times of war. Its not a police force, each planet has those. Its a military, no matter how often it lies about it.

In Asia countries, they are not. People Republic of China Coast Guard serve under Chinese Armed Police, while Indonesian Coast Guard - Bakamla serve under the Minister of Political, law, and security coordination; not the Navy. Japan Coast Guard serve under The Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport, and Tourism. Maybe different countries have different policy regarding this matter.

About Star Fleet, I agree with you. The problem is, The United Federation of Planets has only one organization that responsible of all Outer Space Operation. That's Star Fleet. Well, it is do-able, but not wise, if you think that our modern society has more than one organizations to handle different purpose, Federation policy on Outer Space is actually more primitive and simpler than our reality. Because with single type of organization do everything, they can monopolize and control everything in their respective area of control - Space.

Just think about it. Star Fleet held responsible of defense. So their ships are equipped with the deadliest weapons Federation ever have. They responsible of doing colonization, transporting cargo and people, enforcing law in outer space, doing exploration and scientific projects, etc. That mean, Starfleet Admiral is the most powerful man / woman in the United Federation of Planet, not the president. Because, in a multi planets country like UFP, everything (politic, economy, diplomacy, welfare, everything) are connected / separated by space. You'll need Star Fleet to do everything. So every beings in UFP is actually controlled by Star Fleet.

So hell, they are not military. I think UFP president = Japanese Emperor in Shogunate era, Star Fleet Admiral = Shogun, Star Fleet officers = Samurai, Federation people = Peasant.

Edit : And what kind of scientific and exploration institution (which Star Fleet officer always claim) have a spy agency called Section 31? Section 31 is a dishonest existence for a peaceful scientific and exploration institution to has. They should separate Section 31 from Star Fleet, but it seems they're not.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Nor do I need to. Again, even police departments can fit those five criterion without actually being a military organization.

Please tell me which one has warships? You are not worth debating as you can't be honest and have been shown a number of times by Tuskin where they state they are a military. You also refuse to counter my five points and claim police departments have warships

In Asia countries, they are not.

That is irrelevant as it was based of the US Coast Guard, which totally is. They are a military, they say they are, they say they are not, then they act just like one, with warships! Like the Coastgaurd, war is not their primary function, but it is a major roles they carry out.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Please tell me which one has warships?

The Chinese Coast Guard operates two Type-053 frigates as patrol vessels.

The Russian Coast Guard operates three frigates -- two Krivak class missile ships and one Gepard class -- along with several corvettes and smaller heavily armed cutters.

The South Korean Coast Guard operates two vessels whose exact classification is difficult to determine (semantically, since Korea uses different maritime conventions for some reason) but each has a displacement and armament similar to a very large frigate or a very small destroyer.

The Hellenic Navy operates three Saar-4 class missile corvettes.

All four of these organizations are maritime police agencies.

Also, the Chicago Police drive around in sedans that they refer to as "cruisers" and have taken a particular pleasure in referring to their SUVs as "heavy cruisers." So there's that...

You also refuse to counter my five points and claim police departments have warships

Which a number of them do. Your ignorance of this fact is not evidence in your favor.

That is irrelevant as it was based of the US Coast Guard

No, it was based on the U.S. Navy. That basis was later abandoned by the series' original creator. If you have an issue with that decision (as I do) then you should jump in your time machine, go back to 1988 and beg Gene Rodenberry to change his mind. Until/unless that happens, that's canon and we're stuck with it.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Which a number of them do. Your ignorance of this fact is not evidence in your favor.

You seem to be going to far reaches to claim something based of a US military branch is not in fact military. Something on screen which they claims to be a military a dozen times and fills the role, is somehow not a military. I think you lost any credibility when you called a police cruiser a warship. Really man, you refuse to counter the five points and are going way out there to deflect.


All this because you guys can not accept a ship using a warship designation is a warship.

 

[Tuskin38]

Can you please move this argument to the appropriate thread or PMs? This isn’t a size argument anymore

There was a thread in general trek discussion, dunno if it exists anymore.

 

[Tomalak]

Can you please move this argument to the appropriate thread or PMs? This isn’t a size argument anymore

There was a thread in general trek discussion, dunno if it exists anymore.

The size has been confirmed. There's no longer an argument, so I agree, please move the tedious military discussion into a suitable Gen Trek thread.

 

[Ithekro]

You seem to be going to far reaches to claim something based of a US military branch is not in fact military. Something on screen which they claims to be a military a dozen times and fills the role, is somehow not a military. I think you lost any credibility when you called a police cruiser a warship. Really man, you refuse to counter the five points and are going way out there to deflect.


All this because you guys can not accept a ship using a warship designation is a warship.

Perhaps it is time for you to move on and understand that the planet doesn't revolve around the United States' definitions anymore, and that the United Federation of Planets in not bound by American ideals of what is and is not a military. As pointed out, there a at least a dozen countries that have what use to be defined as warships as police vessels in their Coast Guards that are specifically not military, by their own definitions.

Therefore, Starfleet has every right both claim and be properly defined as not the military. That is the fact of the matter and until someone writes Starfleet as any different from that in future canon, "Starfleet is not the military." There is no room for debate. There is no wiggle room. It is what Starfleet is. Period.

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

No Starfleet is clearly a military organization.
If you look at history the military is not only about fighting. The military has been about exploration, trade routes, science, colonization, all sorts of kewl stuff besides whippin commie fascist asses
If you want to argue that the beginning of the next gen era was not decidedly military I wouldn’t argue
I mean a show where the ship was basically covered in windows, more windows than actual hull, had a kindergarten in a very vulnerable area of the ship, kids on the bridge, all other forms of music had disappeared but classical, every last admiral was an old school librarian, crew addicted to holoporn rather than the real thing, and so on an so forth,. No argument there .
aren’t we supposed to be discussing the rebooted starship sizes of the Discovery era?
Can’t wait to see the slightly tweaked 800m long Connie

 

[F. King Daniel]

Can’t wait to see the slightly tweaked 800m long Connie

I wonder if they'll give the Connie those rabbits-teeth windows so they can reuse the same interior sets, a la the Shenzhou and Discovery?

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

I wonder if they'll give the Connie those rabbits-teeth windows so they can reuse the same interior sets, a la the Shenzhou and Discovery?

If they are used in an interesting way and sparingly they could be cool
No budgeneering thou please
800 meters of sexy duranium dishing out photon torpedo sammiches to every purple and Gray Klingon in the quadrant