Discovery Size Argument™ thread

[jaime]

It's more specific than that even. HMS Dreadnought was merely the first battleship to set sail (USS South Carolina was actually the first ship designed as such, but the UK was in a greater hurry and finished first. Winning the gold medal is all about crossing the finish line first.) with all of its main armament of the same calibre (12"). All subsequent battleships stuck to that model and became known as dreadnoughts or dreadnought-type battleships. All dreadnoughts with mixed-armaments became known as pre-dreadnoughts. All dreadnoughts are battleships. Not all battleships are dreadnoughts.

The distinction was largely moot by 1925, which is when the Washington Naval Treaty was signed and all front-line pre-dreadnoughts had been retired, scrapped or converted. By that point, all battleships were dreadnought battleships, so people simply used "battleship" from that point onwards.

The term "dreadnought" is ridiculously anachronistic in any WW2, let alone sci-fi or even modern-day settings.

I always thought it was a terrible name. H.M.S I ain’t scared of Nuffin. It’s amazing it ever caught on, but I suppose it has a certain appeal in certain situations. Corvette is the most amusing one in some ways, since certain generations will automatically think of a car, as opposed to something like the seagoing equivalent of Intrepid class starships, Miranda’s or Nebula. (Which, for some reason end up getting called frigates in video games despite the obvious modular bits and generally sense of speediness.)
The lines are so blurred in real life, they are even more blurred in Trek...all the ships are modular according to mission profile (therefore corvettes or LCS) all of them are fast (corvettes, frigates) all of them have pretty much identical armament (everything is a cruiser...it’s like the Cold War all over again) and everything after excelsior is a big old lump (Dreadnoughts!)
The only outliers are the Intrepid class and the São Paulo class...both of which seem to be LCS or corvettes, going with the military roles, but one of which is heavily armoured and carries above average armament and the other is a nippy little bugger with better engines. I spose we can call Defiant a U-Boat.
It’s all a bit silly....maybe we can call DSC a through-deck cruiser, cos of its massive shuttle bays and generally cobbled together feel, and the fact that one of them conked out sharpish.
Oops...that reminds me, they are all carriers too, because shuttlebays.
DSC is big because she’s got Stamets hippy garden centre drive as well as standard warp drive...there appears to only be two crossfield class in existence too, and the floppy cut out stuff seems to be integral to the shroom drive. I don’t think she’s anything but a testbed made of modular bits..a Daedalus and Connie primary hull with an extra ring, a barely designed link of a secondary hull like the Delta (it’s like they just wrapped its guts in tin and hammered it into a triangle shape) and duct tape some warp nacelles together before giving them the boxy tin treatment too. I am sure the thinking was ‘stealth bomber’ but I don’t think that worked on the Veangance in the KT or any of the STO intel ships too well either tbh.

 

[STR]

Yet, they are often deployed solo.

And littoral combat ships are sent across oceans. That doesn't make them blue water warships. You seem to have trouble differentiating between "designed to do something" and "can do something in a pinch".

Yeah, they have. The fact you never caught it does not change this fact.

Then name those times. Then count them against the times the Captain claimed to be on a "mission of peace" or claimed to be "explorers" or otherwise objected to their job being primarily military. My guess is the latter outnumbers the former by about 8:1.

 

[jaime]

If she can take out spec ops troopers, yeah it does as she has had the training.


They are warship designations, they also have ships lacking those destinations. We have seen very few ship classes on screen, not seeing something is not an argument for not having it. Also this is not an argument for them not being warships, when they are called such on screen by using warship designations.


One of the movies, they talk about it. We never see it however, but canonically they have one.



That is not a cruiser, that is a cruise ship. please stop being obtuse.



Yet, they are often deployed solo.




Yeah, they have. The fact you never caught it does not change this fact.

Wasn’t there some contest on an assault course or something where a chef from one countries army beat some navy seals or something? I remember the friendly contest between HMS Illustrious and an American vessels Masterat Arms Or something. That was fun...British chap was speedy, American was muscle mass, and they both excelled about where you would think. Anyway...

We have seen upwards of fifty Starfleet or Federation vessels of various sizes, you can ask Eaglemoss as their collection takes up a ton of space and always goes one ‘goodie’ ship and one ‘baddie’ in a month essentially. There’s probably twenty or more classes we have seen. Since the worlds Navies cant agree on these designations and where each begins and ends, I find it unlikely they will in Trek. (Or if you like, we can demand all the frigates have oars.)
You can’t even use displacement rules, as they all have warp drive and there’s next to bugger all in space.
It really makes no sense.
Only Dreadnought I can think of might be the Vengeance over in KT, and she’s probably the only outright warship in Trek. (Caveat for the Defiant and Valiant, there was a war on, and even then one was only seen as a training ship, and the other did science gubbins and was first used for exploration and mapping.) The triple engined abomination of the elegant Galaxy class was in Qs little shindig, but I am not sure she’s referred to as a dreadnought there...
Which comes back to another reason these classes are used in the real world, and why we might hear them in Trek...Politics. Numbers of cruisers, having a dread, not having a carrier...these are often political projections of power to other states. Starfleet might say it has a hundred cruisers, and the Klingons understand that and it works...Starfleet doesn’t mention that they aren’t warships as such, and often go and do Botany courses, Taxi duties, that sort of thing. Starfleet probably redesignated all its frigates into cruisers just to do this, and before that they really loved calling them schooners and clippers because of how it rolls off the tongue. Galleons never caught on.

Starfleet has ships that can fight, but they are not warships.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

And littoral combat ships are sent across oceans. That doesn't make them blue water warships. You seem to have trouble differentiating between "designed to do something" and "can do something in a pinch".

Yet, they do all the time. We have tons of ships in the US we could send, yet send cruisers on solo deployments time and time again.

Then name those times. Then count them against the times the Captain claimed to be on a "mission of peace" or claimed to be "explorers" or otherwise objected to their job being primarily military. My guess is the latter outnumbers the former by about 8:1.

You are one of those who thinks the coast guard is not a military aren't you/

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Starfleet has ships that can fight, but they are not warships.

Yes they are. Its like people always claiming Starfleet is not a military, even though they act like one and have a military code of justice. Trek uses military warship designations, so by canon, they are warships ( some like the Galaxy do not use such a designation). We have been told they are designed for combat (VOY gave use that one). They are warships, up to the galaxy they even followed no family deployment rules. They are the freaking Coast Guard in space with the Environmental stuff replaced by exploration.

As long as they use warship designations, we can damned well assume they have warship missions ( which they so did).

 

[Tuskin38]

Basically being a warship isn't their primary function, but can preform that duty if needed.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Basically being a warship isn't their primary function, but can preform that duty if needed.

Well, yes and no. It is a warship, but its all prettied up and not stripped down as we tend to think of them as the Federation does not think that way. This was why the Defiant was such a blow to them system, it ripped away the window dressing and made them look at it as a warship.

 

[STR]

Yet, they do all the time. We have tons of ships in the US we could send, yet send cruisers on solo deployments time and time again.

That's not a response. That is just you lazily restating your last point without adding anything. it wasn't good enough then and it's not working now.

You are one of those who thinks the coast guard is not a military aren't you/

That's not the answer to the question I asked. In case your scroll wheel is having trouble, you can use the arrow keys to scroll up to my previous post.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

That's not a response. That is just you lazily restating your last point without adding anything. it wasn't good enough then and it's not working now.

It in fact was a response, you claim they are not designed for it, yet they are used for it most times. That is how most deploy. You made a claim that does not match reality.

That's not the answer to the question I asked. In case your scroll wheel is having trouble, you can use the arrow keys to scroll up to my previous post.

What you asked got answered. They use warship designations and the show states they are built for combat.All your excuses does not change this.

 

[jaime]

Yes they are. Its like people always claiming Starfleet is not a military, even though they act like one and have a military code of justice. Trek uses military warship designations, so by canon, they are warships ( some like the Galaxy do not use such a designation). We have been told they are designed for combat (VOY gave use that one). They are warships, up to the galaxy they even followed no family deployment rules. They are the freaking Coast Guard in space with the Environmental stuff replaced by exploration.

As long as they use warship designations, we can damned well assume they have warship missions ( which they so did).

It’s unlikely we will reach a conclusion here, since I am one of those people that goes with ‘Starfleet is not a military’ because having various main characters become unreliable narrators does more harm than good overall. It also totally ignores the whole point of Qs interaction in Farpoint (he basically says Starfleet is a military, is like the conquistadors...Picard shows him this is not the case.) and All Good Things. You think of it otherwise, and so to you, those designations mean Military.

 

[Brainsucker]

Yet, they do all the time. We have tons of ships in the US we could send, yet send cruisers on solo deployments time and time again.

You are one of those who thinks the coast guard is not a military aren't you/

Coast Guard is not military. They act like police on the sea, and not Navy. I don't know how the USA Coast Guard work, but in Asia, like Indonesia, China, Vietnam, Japan, etc, they don't belong to the military. They are considered as Civil Law enforcement that protect the sea (that the country claim) by patrolling on them. In China, they are under Chinese Armed Police. While in Indonesia, they are under a ministry of political, law, and security coordination. That's way they don't equip Coast Guard ship with military armament. Even if they do, it's lightly armed, with only front cannon, but without missiles. They also equipped with water cannon. That's why in South China Sea conflict between claimant, they did ramming to each other, or firing water cannon to their adversary, but no one fired a bullet or missile. Or else, the conflict will escalated to a naval battle.

But can Coast Guard ships act as a warship in an event of war? With their standard equipment, they can't. But they can always be refitted to a warship in a shipyard if the country need more ships to fight a naval battle.

So what is Star Fleet. Are they a military organization? Maybe not. But Star Fleet has the responsibility to defend the Federation Space. So what kind of organization that has the responsibility to protect a nation territory, equipped with the most advanced deadly weapons that the nation has, with combat readiness capability, military rank, but not a military organization? There is a reason why a military organization exist in real life, and why they're different to Civil Law Enforcement.

 

[Tuskin38]

Starfleet performs the same roles the modern military does, plus more.

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[Jesse1066]

The US Coast Guard is 100% a branch of the United States military and has participated in every US war since its establishment. Like the Coast Guard, Starfleet has nonmilitaristic duties, but in times of war it's the only military the Federation has.

 

[Tomalak]

"Is Starfleet military" is the tedious TrekBBS equivalent of Godwin's Law.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Coast Guard is not military.

They are 100% a branch of the US military and has been involved in every single war.Look it up, they are a branch of the US military.

But can Coast Guard ships act as a warship in an event of war? With their standard equipment, they can't. But they can always be refitted to a warship in a shipyard if the country need more ships to fight a naval battle.

They have warships, many have been decommissioned over the last few years, but they have purpose built warships.

So what is Star Fleet. Are they a military organization? Maybe not. But Star Fleet has the responsibility to defend the Federation Space. So what kind of organization that has the responsibility to protect a nation territory, equipped with the most advanced deadly weapons that the nation has, with combat readiness capability, military rank, but not a military organization? There is a reason why a military organization exist in real life, and why they're different to Civil Law Enforcement.

They are indeed a military. They use military ranks, a military academy, a military code of justice and have the responsibility for protecting the federation and defending it during times of war. Its not a police force, each planet has those. Its a military, no matter how often it lies about it.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

The US Coast Guard is 100% a branch of the United States military and has participated in every US war since its establishment. Like the Coast Guard, Starfleet has nonmilitaristic duties, but in times of war it's the only military the Federation has.

I have no clue why people have a hard time with this. If you replace the "environmental " stuff with exploration you pretty much have the coast guard.

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

It’s unlikely we will reach a conclusion here, since I am one of those people that goes with ‘Starfleet is not a military’ because having various main characters become unreliable narrators does more harm than good overall. It also totally ignores the whole point of Qs interaction in Farpoint (he basically says Starfleet is a military, is like the conquistadors...Picard shows him this is not the case.) and All Good Things. You think of it otherwise, and so to you, those designations mean Military.

Really, all Picard does is convince Q that Starfleet are not conquistadors. Starfleet is an evolved military organisation, one whose charter goes well beyond existing merely to break things.

 

[Tuskin38]

Undiscovered Country implies there was a part of the fleet dedicated to just defending the Klingon border.

SPOCK: The dismantling of our space stations and starbases along the Neutral Zone, an end to almost seventy years of unremitting hostility with the Klingons, which the Klingons can no longer afford.
MILITARY AIDE: Bill, are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?
C IN C: I'm sure that our exploration and scientific programs would be unaffected, Captain, but...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes they are.

No they are not.

Its like people always claiming Starfleet is not a military

Starfleet claims they are not a military and that has been established and re-established multiple times in canon. Exactly how this is supposed to work is an interesting question that lends itself to a complex and nuanced examination of the nature of standing militaries, their role in society and politics, and their evolution through history, and a projection as to how modern Professional Fighting Forces might eventually pass the torch to an armed exploratory and scientific organization that treats combat situations less like a death struggle and more like an extremely hazardous engineering problem...

Except American viewers aren't comfortable with a vision of the future where The Military isn't the greatest manifestation of honor and freedom in the universe, so we have this "fuck your nuance, they're the military" attitude in fandom.

It's just not that simple.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Starfleet claims they are not a military and that has been established and re-established multiple times in canon.

Yes they lie about it all the time. But look at the facts
1: Have warships that use navy warship designations
2: Have a Military structure
3: Uses a military academy
4: Uses a military code of justice
5: Fills military role for the federation


The whole thing is set up like the US coast Guard, we know behind the scenes that was the model, which is a branch of the US military. You guys can keep ignoring facts, but it is a military and although a few lines claim its not, a dozen more claim it is and every single action claims it is.