Discovery Size Argument™ thread

[Rahul]

That whole supposition seems to me as groundless and unsupported as the one that tries to dispute. Even more unsubstantiated because it is contradictory to empirical evidence. (And no, as far as I’m concerned, Kelvin film & DSC ships can’t be used as corroborations and don’t help us reach for safe conclusions about TOS era Starfleet.)

Forget what @Crazy Eddie says. He's just plain wrong. There IS evidence. The TOS-movies mainly. There are a vast number of ships visible, with different mission spectrums, as well as further hints like how many ships are available at any time/how big the doors of a space station are/what type of starships we see protecting Earth.. etc. etc.. Also everytime other starships were seen/mentioned in TOS, including fleets. The "big gun" was always the Constitution class, until the Excelsior came around. And during TNG the Galaxy was obviously the newest and biggest one. Crazy Eddie simply mismatches personal headcanon (his own) with official canon. Not the first one to do that. But a little obnoxious since he can't differentiate between the two.

 

[Rahul]

Why is everyone so hostile
It’s a soft reboot
The movies were a hard reboot

Now that we’ve seen this soft reboot version of a constitution class I’m sure it will be upsacled in size accordingly prob even bigger than the ugly JJprise
At least the wire mesh we’ve seen looks closer to MattJeffries design than the Ryan church piece of garbage

So we’re (apparently) getting a 700 m plus Connie which more closely resembles our beloved classic (minus the reliant phaser cannon thingies) which unlike the moves does not actually reboot the stories and characters themselves ( Kirk is shatner not Han Solo/Skywalker/pine)

I’m fine with a soft reboot of designs as long as the characters and stories are left alone
(Although the Klingon designs are God’s awful, the makeup and the video game alien ships and the mouth full of phlegm and marbles dialogue )
But thats another discussion for another day

It IS a soft-reboot. That itself wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that it was specifically avertised as NOT being a reboot, in any shape of form. Bad tastes of "Cumberbatch is not Khan" come to mind. Additionally, the show muddyies the waters hard by telling stories to intrically dependant on previous canon details liketo other Trek show before (e.g. the Defiant), while at the same time messing with that same canon (the Mirror Universe already been explored 10 years before Kirk, Lorca's Tribble not being able to recognize Tyler's a Klingon,...).

It seems like the show itself doesn't know what it wants to be, and started out as something completely different, but changed course 180° sometime during production, and is now a bad mash up of the worst of both worlds.

 

[XCV330]

Lorca's Tribble not being able to recognize Tyler's a Klingon,...).
.

The work done on Tyler/Voq was so good that it took extra tests for Starfleet medical to even begin to suspect it. I doubt the tribble had much of a chance.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Lorca probably already did something to that Tribble, like removing it's scent glands.

 

[Lord Garth FOI]

Yeah, surprise they lie
It’s Hollywood they are a nest of liars.
They lied about the movies not being a reboot they were in fact a full reboot and now Star Wars fans are crying themselves to sleep with the same lies and crap from team JJ.
They lied about this as well.
The difference is aside from the Klingons and Mudd the cold blooded murderer im pleased they are at least making an effort to tie in the existing history and honestly I like the show. I love Lorca
In fact that’s actually another white lie
The producers claim Green is the main star, clearly she is not, this is
Jason Issac’s show.
I do like most of the characters as well.
I can buy Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly existing somewhere in this universe and being exactly whom they are albeit in diff uniforms and a much larger ship.

It IS a soft-reboot. That itself wouldn't be the problem. The problem is that it was specifically avertised as NOT being a reboot, in any shape of form. Bad tastes of "Cumberbatch is not Khan" come to mind. Additionally, the show muddyies the waters hard by telling stories to intrically dependant on previous canon details liketo other Trek show before (e.g. the Defiant), while at the same time messing with that same canon (the Mirror Universe already been explored 10 years before Kirk, Lorca's Tribble not being able to recognize Tyler's a Klingon,...).

It seems like the show itself doesn't know what it wants to be, and started out as something completely different, but changed course 180° sometime during production, and is now a bad mash up of the worst of both worlds.

 

[bigglesworth]

Lorca probably already did something to that Tribble, like removing it's scent glands.

Maybe it's a MU tribble. Mirror tribbles don't react to Klingons...

 

[RuthlessNate]

Exactly this. What's more, when uptime changes cause downtime changes due to time travel, uptime changes yet again which causes more downtime changes due to the time travel incidents being different again. This repeats over and over diverging the timeline more and more till the timeline becomes stable. From an audience perspective it's instantaneous.

The one cinch in this idea is that it would apply to every timeline created, making parallel timelines where everything is the exact same save for some detail more unlikely. For example, in a timeline where Picard died after Wolf 359, would the trips back to the 19th and 21st century that the Next Gen crew eventually take play out similarly enough without Picard to preserve the timeline?

 

[Longinus]

Whilst I greatly dislike the wanton supersizing in the Kelvinverse, at this point it might be best to upscale some of the old ship classes moderately. The sizes of these DIS ships seem to be about what people had concluded by the screen evidence, counting decks etc. Thing is, if you try to gauge size of the many of the older ships similarly, you end up with somewhat or even drastically larger sizes than the (semi) official figures. Connie's decks, the shuttlebay TMP cargo bay and rec deck all point to the length of nearly 400 metres. Similarly decks of Exelsior don't make sense unless the ship is about 600 metres long. So yeah, I'm fine if they upscale the old ships by about the third or so from their commonly accepted sizes; I think they'd then make more sense with these DIS ships too.

 

[Prax]

Yes, it is pretty small.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

Lorca probably already did something to that Tribble, like removing it's scent glands.

It has been fixed so it does not breed IIRC, this could have had other effects.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The "big gun" was always the Constitution class

I challenge you to find even a SINGLE source anywhere in TOS or the movies that actually supports this claim. Not that the Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant," but that there's something specifically about the CONSTITUTION class that makes it the "big guns" in excess of other starships.

I am 110% sure that you can't. In fact, the only overt reference in the 23rd century to the Constitutions being special at all actually comes from Discovery itself.

And during TNG the Galaxy was obviously the newest and biggest one.

Galaxy was very big and very new. No one ever claimed it was the biggest and newest. This is doubly true of the Constitution class, which was never even described as being particularly big or new, let alone "biggest" or "newest."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Whilst I greatly dislike the wanton supersizing in the Kelvinverse, at this point it might be best to upscale some of the old ship classes moderately. The sizes of these DIS ships seem to be about what people had concluded by the screen evidence, counting decks etc. Thing is, if you try to gauge size of the many of the older ships similarly, you end up with somewhat or even drastically larger sizes than the (semi) official figures. Connie's decks, the shuttlebay TMP cargo bay and rec deck all point to the length of nearly 400 metres. Similarly decks of Exelsior don't make sense unless the ship is about 600 metres long. So yeah, I'm fine if they upscale the old ships by about the third or so from their commonly accepted sizes; I think they'd then make more sense with these DIS ships too.

Someone in the Tech forum figured out the TMP Enterprise actually makes way more sense at about 410 meters. This is especially true when you take some of its interiors into account; the engineering set alone with its long corridors is too large to fit into the secondary hull, and trying to fit two side-by-side torpedo rooms into at torpedo bay is an exercise in futility at the ship's "canon" size.

 

[Ithekro]

I seem to recall the Romulan Commander referring to USS Enterprise as one of the Federation's best ships in "The Enterprise Incident".

A rescale of the older ships that is inline with the sets to make the ship function to generally acceptable, since Starships of this era are not Time Lord technology ("bigger on the inside"). They did that for Space Battleship Yamato when they rescaled the model in Yamato 2199 to match the original anime's bridge design, converting her from around 265m to 333m long.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I challenge you to find even a SINGLE source anywhere in TOS or the movies that actually supports this claim. Not that the Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant," but that there's something specifically about the CONSTITUTION class that makes it the "big guns" in excess of other starships.

I am 110% sure that you can't. In fact, the only overt reference in the 23rd century to the Constitutions being special at all actually comes from Discovery itself.

"He commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a starship. A very special vessel and crew." - from "Bred and Circuses", back when the Enterprise was a "Starship-class" vessel, as per the plaque on the wall by the turbolift.

 

[Tuskin38]

Lorca's Tribble not being able to recognize Tyler's a Klingon,...).

Pretty sure they've never been in the same room.

You people keep getting stuck over the size, size doesn't mean better.

I bet the connie could kick DSC's arse.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I seem to recall the Romulan Commander referring to USS Enterprise as one of the Federation's best ships in "The Enterprise Incident".

KIRK: Instrument failure caused navigational error. We were across the Neutral Zone before we realised it, then we were surrounded by your ships before we could get back.
COMMANDER: A starship? One of the Starfleet's finest vessels? You're saying instrument failure as radical as you suggest went unnoticed until you were well past the Neutral Zone?

I don't know that "finest" really counts towards "biggest" or "newest."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"He commands not just a spaceship, Proconsul, but a starship. A very special vessel and crew." - from "Bred and Circuses", back when the Enterprise was a "Starship-class" vessel, as per the plaque on the wall by the turbolift.

I don't see where he calls the Enterprise "biggest" or "newest," do you?

At any rate, "starships" are indeed pretty special things, and the Enterprise was a Constitution class starship. In Starfleet terminology, that's a phrase that describes a ship of the line; it's their equivalent of a "warship."

 

[Rahul]

I challenge you to find even a SINGLE source anywhere in TOS or the movies that actually supports this claim. Not that the Enterprise is "the only ship in the quadrant," but that there's something specifically about the CONSTITUTION class that makes it the "big guns" in excess of other starships.

I am 110% sure that you can't. In fact, the only overt reference in the 23rd century to the Constitutions being special at all actually comes from Discovery itself.


Galaxy was very big and very new. No one ever claimed it was the biggest and newest. This is doubly true of the Constitution class, which was never even described as being particularly big or new, let alone "biggest" or "newest."

Yeah, you're really waaay off the rails here.
Both Enterprise have been the premiere starship (classes) of it's eras. In fact, the D was even the flagship. There is not a "single" source anywhere. EVERY source on the matter we have says this.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Constitution_class

Funny little nitpick:
"The dimensions of the Constitution-class, 947 feet (289 meters) long for the original configuration and 1,000 feet (305 meters) for the refit-configuration, have been set in stone in time immemorial as far as Star Trek lore is concerned. That being said and oddly enough, neither dimension has actually ever been canonically confirmed, as neither dimension was ever seen or referred to in any of the live-action Star Trek productions."

Which IMO lends even more weight to the theory that the ship is actually a bit larger than that, more fitting to the size of the shuttle bay and other sets.

(This is also the reason why your little calculations and comparisons in sizes are off: They rely solely on non-canon sources, and are often in direct contrast to actual on-screen data)

 

[Tuskin38]

Both Enterprise have been the premiere starship (classes) of it's eras.

Even Michael says in an episode to Tilly that a posting on a ship like the Enterprise is seen as something good for her career.

 

[Rahul]

Pretty sure they've never been in the same room.

You people keep getting stuck over the size, size doesn't mean better.

I bet the connie could kick DSC's arse.

Yeah, not on screen. But the Tribble is almost always in Lorcas ready room. Are you trying to suggest that the Captain never, ever has ordered his security officer into his ready room?

This looks a lot more like just another oversight by the creators - the same way the redheaded helmswomen from the Shenzhou is now cybernetically enhanced on the Discovery and gives Burnham a shocked look when they first meet - and then they have NEVER TALKED to each other on screen since then. Despite there being so much potential and unanswered questions for an interesting dynamic. But the writers simply forgot at the appropriate moment.