Discovery Size Argument™ thread

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by F. King Daniel, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. RobertoRossUK

    RobertoRossUK Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2018
    I wasn't scared away, I was banned so I couldn't reply.
     
  2. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Location:
    Far North Chicago Suburbs
    Ahhh. I saw the dreaded "line" and feared the worst.
     
  3. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2017
    Location:
    Prax
    20 years old ain't old.
     
  4. Gonzo

    Gonzo Guest

    It is for a naval vessel, plus its only the hull that's 20 years old the internal infrastructure and systems have probably been refitted more than once in that time.

    Most vessels are retired once the end of the expected service life is reached, which is normally at around 20 years, although some designs may continue on for anything up to 10 years longer if upgrades are available to keep the vessel up to date and the running costs don't become too high.

    I suspect the Shenzou is one such example of this.

    In design terms 20 years is a very long time indeed.
     
  5. Jesse1066

    Jesse1066 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Location:
    Washington State
    20 years may be a long time in the real world, but this is Star Trek, where Excelsiors, Mirandas, Oberths, BoPs and K'tingas were in use for 100+ years.
     
    Ronald Held and Gonzo like this.
  6. Mirror Mirror

    Mirror Mirror Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013

    Which was more real life budget, even if it made no damned sense. Those off the shelf models were cheap.
     
    Jesse1066 and Gonzo like this.
  7. Gonzo

    Gonzo Guest

    Yes they continued to be used because they were good designs that aged well and were easy to upgrade and maintain, that isn't the case for most classes of ship whether they are ocean going or space faring, I doubt we will ever see any more Galaxy class for instance even if there was a new Star Trek set in the required time period, for various reasons.

    The main issue with ocean going vessels is the damage done by salt water, that isn't something that a starship has to worry about but there are plenty of other hazards in space that can break down a ships hull over time.

    It just gets to the point that its easier, cheaper and more efficient to just mothball the ships and replace with new updated ships that are designed for the current time period and the issues that are faced.
     
    CaptainMurdock and Jesse1066 like this.
  8. Jesse1066

    Jesse1066 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2014
    Location:
    Washington State
    At least in the case of the Excelsior I think it helped give the impression that this was truly the future of the established Star Trek universe that people knew. The others, being older ships, are a little more out of place, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Presumably most of them were recently built/upgraded.
     
    CaptainMurdock, Longinus and Gonzo like this.
  9. Lord Garth FOI

    Lord Garth FOI Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Too many windows to clean on the galaxy class as well as kindergartens too near the torpedo room
    Star fleet deemed it impractical
     
    ITDUDE, Jesse1066 and Gonzo like this.
  10. Gonzo

    Gonzo Guest

    Yeah, plus most of them were destroyed quite early into their service, that alone would beg the question as to why, add to that the lesson Starfleet learned about not having families on board ships.

    Washing all those windows would be a chore indeed.

    I suspect the next ship class that would have families on board would be the Universe class.

    Even though the hulls were good there would still be a limit to the stresses they could withstand due to older materials used in construction and just how much of a pounding due to damage and warping the ship can take before its structural integrity fails, shields are all well and good but their power requirements will always limit them.

    Battlestar Galactica finale case in point, honorable mention also goes to Babylon 5's Earthforce Cruisers and Destroyers, solid no nonsense design.

    Note how the ships that were kept in service were actually quite bulky and solid in design, like the Oberth and the Excelsior, it all helps especially with how much internal space the Excelsior had compared to the classes before it.

    In truth the original Constitution class was quite vulnerable in places as the struts connecting the nacelles were very thin and an obvious target for enemy ships, plus there wasn't actually much internal space for a ship with that size footprint, that was somewhat rectified with the Excelsior and onwards.

    Whereas the later Ambassador and Galaxy class were far more robustly built in that regard.

    Ultimately a ship like a Battlestar or a Borg Cube is far tougher and more capable of taking the knocks simply due to efficient use of space and having a solid all round construction with few obviously weak areas to target, a single uniform hull is always going to have a higher structural integrity than a ship with two or more.

    Which leads me on to the Defiant which worked so well due to its uniform shape and single hull configuration, it enabled far more equipment and systems to be squeezed into what is actually quite a small hull, which is one of the reasons it packs such a big punch for its size and small crew complement.

    In truth the Defiant is by far one of the most efficiently designed ships that Starfleet has, if not thee most efficient, main reason for this is a simple one, it was designed for one purpose only which was war with the Borg and its transfer to escort duties during the Dominion War was a simple one, I would say the ability to fit Transwarp coils would also make it an excellent explorer/ extreme range scout, its overkill for a simple survey vessel though which is what the Oberth class ended up as.

    I do like the Discovery design, while it does have multiple hull sections they are for the most part connected together in a very solid way which increases the overall integrity of the hull, even so a lot of space is wasted that could have been used for more scientific instruments and labs.

    Even so its a step in the right direction, also Starfleet should have fighter wings on its largest vessels, especially the D forwards and new Enterprise 1701 from the films, they are excellent for scouting, ship defense and general operations, or at least a couple of Runabouts in the case of the D, there would be plenty of space between the nacelles.

    P.S Oops, I think I should have just said yeah and left it at that. :biggrin:
     
    cultcross, Lord Garth FOI and ITDUDE like this.
  11. Mirror Mirror

    Mirror Mirror Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013

    Star trek never makes sense anyhow. However, as long as a space fram is refit, and the TMP is not a refit, you could keep it in service. I mean the wear and tear would be light really.

    I think those ships we see are old frames used close to home so to speak. Mothballed or sent on milk runs and jobs even out of date frames could handle. I mean an 80 year old heavy cruiser is still a freaming heavy cruiser. If refit, it might not stand up to a modern cruiser of the same class, but wpuld still be holy terror to pirates and most 2nd tier ships of most other super powers.
     
  12. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    Location:
    It just depends on whether the frame meets the need.
    The B-52 still flies because it's very good at the specific thing it was designed for. Eventually due to metal fatigue it will have to be replaced. Some ISS modules go all the way back to the Almaz program in the 1980's, and the first module was lofted to orbit back in 1998. Still doing well.
    There was nothing wrong with the USS Missouri when it was retired but the role itself was phased out. The ship just was not needed anymore, vs being replaced with ships designed for the need at hand. The the frame meets the need for new engines, avionics, etc, the ship might well be worth saving. I guess the Miranda is the B-52 of Starfleet.
     
  13. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    On the USS Sovereign
    It does depend on the"space miles" accumulated. If the space frame is well maintained and regular refits are done,why not a ship that is in service for maybe 100 years?
     
  14. Mirror Mirror

    Mirror Mirror Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013

    I can get on board with this except for the fact we only see a few frames. I think we need to accept some of this stuff was RL budget. If there is a Mirandra ( maybe 3 to 4 versions we saw) and a size shifting Oberth, there has to be dozens of other frames. And its not like they can't moth ball em or sell them once decommissioned.
     
  15. Mad Jack Wolfe

    Mad Jack Wolfe Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2008
    A Miranda-class ship would make a bitchin' party barge.
     
  16. Mirror Mirror

    Mirror Mirror Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    It would be useful in many roles really. I mean I could see them selling decommissioned ones to other agencies. Hell we saw one used with a skeleton crew of 36 or so as a cargo ship.
     
  17. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Star Trek Online, the current Kobayashi Maru is a modified Miranda, or Miranda-like ship.

    I assume it's civilian. The registry prefix is ECS.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Mirror Mirror

    Mirror Mirror Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013

    Its hull is very close. Are those aft torpedo Lunchers?
     
  19. CaptainMurdock

    CaptainMurdock Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2013
    Location:
    Ohio
    Looks more like an extended landing platform/hanger deck. It's a bit difficult to tell.
     
  20. Mirror Mirror

    Mirror Mirror Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Yeah, I do not think that is a Miranda,but do think it is close in design