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Discovery at STLV. The massive info dump

Just wanted to mention:

Shows are not always cancelled due to ratings.

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Both Crusade and Firefly are shows that are widely acknowledged to have been 'sabotaged', whether by design, or incompetence.

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Crusade
actually had studio executives who wanted to kill it before it had aired, due to politics - they felt it didn't jive with the direction they wanted to take their network in (probably teen drama instead of serious space opera) - so they basically interfered with it, to the point they almost gave J Michael Straczynski a nervous breakdown - forcing him to change crew uniforms between episodes by writ (because they allegedly didn't like the design, in fact they didnt care) - airing the entire thing out of order when it was arc-based - it was horrific - JMS only found out much later what had happened. Babylon 5's direct sequel could have been an amazing show, and for those who have read the unaired scripts, it was going to get really deep just like B5.

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Firefly
, if you remember, was actually aired out of order, just like Crusade, with the pilot being broadcast last, Joss Whedon being forced to quickly put together a second pilot, etc - not as bad as Crusade's fate maybe, but they didn't even give it a full season to see how it would perform, delaying episodes so there were weeks long gaps between them - part of the reason why they promised to give Dollhouse more of a chance as a sort of "mea culpa" apology for how they had treated one of the best content creators on TV. It didn't prevent Firefly from spawning an insanely loyal fanbase, probably the most loyalist since Star Trek - the Browncoats.
  • Crusade ran for 13 episodes
  • Firefly ran for 15 episodes
Those are the two most famous examples of all time - both didn't last a full season - both were made by creators proven for the ambition and quality of their work - both had potential for greatness. You don't often hear about Crusade anymore, but those two are probably the most tragically unfair cancellations of all time, and should be remembered together in a category of their own.

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Other types of cancellation can happen for a variety of reasons. Joss Whedon was sure that Angel would have got another season, but chose to try to opt for renewal early, thinking he could have more time for production the next season - the execs cancelled it on a whim, only to find season five's ratings were actually up (one of the best seasons of television I've ever seen, and one of the greatest reversals in the quality of a show I've ever seen). That was another pretty tragic cancellation, as if he had waited a few months for the normal renewal slot, like with previous seasons, it's renewal would have been a certainty. Angel is sometimes seen as a Buffy spin-off but it was an equally strong show in it's own right, dealing with different themes, like the absurdity and struggle of the adult working life.

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Audience reactions could have played some part in the renewal of shows like Farscape, Firefly, etc, receiving special movie endings after the show itself was cancelled (Serenity, Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars - both amazing endings for amazing shows). It's debatable whether the studios would have done these movies anyway, but they at least appeared to have been cancelled with no further plans at the time - the letter writing campaign upon Farscape's cancellation made the news.

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On the other side of the coin, other shows that really really didn't deserve to last as long as they did, lasted five seasons, despite being objectively worse drama than any of the above, just because, I guess, they were cheap enough, or established enough in terms of built sets, or soap-opera like enough to attract a consistent viewership, or for other reasons that may not have been linked to their ratings as such, like the politics/image of the TV channel
 
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Trek did 'what the fans wanted' with ENT season 4, lots of explanations, callbacks and fanwank. The show was cancelled. What the audience wants will have an effect. But the fans make up a minority of that audience and are actually the most reliably hooked members of it.

Enterprise was already dying at that point, I don't think they could have done anything to save it.
 
Isn't Enterprise Season 4 considered to be the best season of ENT? :shrug:
As a TOS fan, I thought Season 4 of ENT was the best season of Star Trek produced since TOS Season 1. I honestly wish Manny Coto, Judith Reeves-Stevens and Garfield Reeves-Stevens had some input into ST: D because these guys (IMO) really got what made TOS great - and did some marvelous homages to TOS in ENT Season 4. YMMV.
 
As a TOS fan, I thought Season 4 of ENT was the best season of Star Trek produced since TOS Season 1. I honestly wish Manny Coto, Judith Reeves-Stevens and Garfield Reeves-Stevens had some input into ST: D because these guys (IMO) really got what made TOS great - and did some marvelous homages to TOS in ENT Season 4. YMMV.
You're right -- it varied.
 
Yep, the MacQuarrie Discovery looks very industrial and functional like a diesel locomotive or something - again, just symbolic, but very good symbolism, as despite the fact that we could probably make very organic looking things by then, the connotations of boxy shapes and prominent edges serves to symbolize a functional thing, like a NASA designed ship would be - no ornamentation, no extra space. This is plausible as something that existed just before TOS and TMP when everything was present, but perhaps a bit less refined.

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There was a good mission in the game Star Trek: Judgement Rites where Kirk, Scotty and Chekov go to visit a museum containing components from historical Starships that were junked over the years, including things like an old nuclear-powered probe, like the ones that Starfleet fires out of a torpedo tube, but much more bulky, like a transitional design between NASA and Starfleet - also things like an old bulky EVA suit that was used in the "commonwealth mission", a famous incident in the 22nd century when a cosmonaut rescued an early starship above Mars called the SS Commonwealth. Its full of the exact kind of feeling that they should try to conjure in a prequel. The Franklin in Beyond was well done, but like a lot of people I felt ENT missed an opportunity in not making things much more primitive, like having some Earth ships have no artificial gravity like Babylon 5 did for older ships, or replacing photon torpedos with nuclear weapons.

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Nice links.
 
As a TOS fan, I thought Season 4 of ENT was the best season of Star Trek produced since TOS Season 1. I honestly wish Manny Coto, Judith Reeves-Stevens and Garfield Reeves-Stevens had some input into ST: D because these guys (IMO) really got what made TOS great - and did some marvelous homages to TOS in ENT Season 4. YMMV.
A lot of people wanted Manny Coto to succeed except, of course, Rick Berman, who bitterly and infamously said that ENT "wasn't the Manny Coto show" after the latter showed the former how it should have been done all along.
 
Creatively speaking, Enterprise's third year was a much bigger success than season four, in my opinion. It felt like the show had finally picked up steam and was doing its own thing. I do enjoy season four, but it was much too reliant on TOS callbacks and unnecessary fanwank. All too often, too, the multi-part episodes revealed themselves as what they really were: an attempt at saving money.
 
Creatively speaking, Enterprise's third year was a much bigger success than season four, in my opinion. It felt like the show had finally picked up steam and was doing its own thing. I do enjoy season four, but it was much too reliant on TOS callbacks and unnecessary fanwank. All too often, too, the multi-part episodes revealed themselves as what they really were: an attempt at saving money.
Agreed. I get why fans love season four, but it's almost entirely built on callbacks to previous Trek lore. It's entirely geared towards Star Trek fans and so while it may succeed on one level, it wasn't its own show.

I recently watched Enterprise properly for the first time and found the third year by far the best of the bunch. The last year felt like slavish fan service, and it felt cheap in a way Star Trek hadn't before. It got to the point where I rolled my eyes whenever this week's callback was revealed: oh look, it's Brent Spiner/T'Pau/Tholians/Augments/mirror universe/etc.

Some of it is undeniably fun, but overall it felt like a missed opportunity to build on the third season. The Terra Nova stuff was a good example of that.
 
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The 3rd Season of Enterprise was the only time I maniacally binged-watched an entire season of Star Trek in a matter of a couple of days. I've never done that before (or after) with Trek. Not even with my beloved TOS. And I've only done it with a handful of other shows like Lost, or Prison Break, or Game of Thrones...
 
Creatively speaking, Enterprise's third year was a much bigger success than season four, in my opinion. It felt like the show had finally picked up steam and was doing its own thing. I do enjoy season four, but it was much too reliant on TOS callbacks and unnecessary fanwank. All too often, too, the multi-part episodes revealed themselves as what they really were: an attempt at saving money.
Season 3 had a bunch of really stupid filler episodes, and even the smart episodes had issues.
 
Creatively speaking, Enterprise's third year was a much bigger success than season four, in my opinion. It felt like the show had finally picked up steam and was doing its own thing. I do enjoy season four, but it was much too reliant on TOS callbacks and unnecessary fanwank. All too often, too, the multi-part episodes revealed themselves as what they really were: an attempt at saving money.

Indeed. I felt the third series dragged a bit (may have been better as a shorter season), but in a recent rewatch it was easier to appreciate what they were aiming for and for the first time on a ship-based show, consistency between episodes and seeing damage lasting.

There were moments in the final series that were great for linking things together, but the reliance on fan service in that regard takes away the independence of the show. The third series made it it's own thing.
 
Season 3 had a bunch of really stupid filler episodes, and even the smart episodes had issues.
That's essentially true for the fourth season as well. For every “Hatchery” in season three there is a “Bound” in season four. And even then, the former does its own thing while the latter is written around nostalgia for hot green belly dancers from The Original Series.
 
That's essentially true for the fourth season as well. For every “Hatchery” in season three there is a “Bound” in season four. And even then, the former does its own thing while the latter is written around nostalgia for hot green belly dancers from The Original Series.

Ah yes, "Bound", the episode where one sexist trope is replaced with another.
 
No it doesn't. It never has. Never in the history of shows or movies have fans made an influence, except maybe Serenity. That's it. Dude, you're living in a fantasy. How old are you?

There have been some times but not on the scale they are talking about. I remember quite a few shows where a character was intended to just be a one time guest star but were well received by fans and so became a recurring characters.
 
Arrow has been dropping in quality like an out of control tourist down a skee-slope with terrible decisions and changes being made.

Arrow has been dropping because of the over-focus on Felicity Smoak and her being the girlfriend of Oliver Queen when it should be Diana Lance that should be his girlfriend. And some fans have been complaining that Smoak is a Mary Sue made bigger by Berlanti's caving in to Tumblrinas.

If fans were behind all of those, then fuck fans. Obviously their decisions kill franchises or take them in wild, awful tangents.

In the case of Arrow, I'd say that the above-mentioned by me fans may have done their part to 'mess' it up.

On the other side of the coin, other shows that really really didn't deserve to last as long as they did, lasted five seasons, despite being objectively worse drama than any of the above, just because, I guess, they were cheap enough, or established enough in terms of built sets, or soap-opera like enough to attract a consistent viewership, or for other reasons that may not have been linked to their ratings as such, like the politics/image of the TV channel

Many of these are mundane shows like (IMHO) Friends, Two Broke Girls, and Big Bang Theory, the later show I wish would be ended next season on CBS, along with all of the cop and reality shows-if they did, then a show like Star Trek: Discovery could succeed on TV, perhaps in a Monday night slot, rather than have to be on a streaming service, IMHO.
 
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Ah yes, "Bound", the episode where one sexist trope is replaced with another.

Bound was one of the ones that fascinate me for an odd reason. Whenever someone says somethnigs sexist, I have my wife watch it and get her reaction.

Her reaction was to log into STO and make a crew of half naked Orions. One day I'm wondering if she'll find something sexist, or just see more "bad ass hot chicks." I think we're in reverse.

Personally I just thought it was all just a bit boring.

There have been some times but not on the scale they are talking about. I remember quite a few shows where a character was intended to just be a one time guest star but were well received by fans and so became a recurring characters.

That's fairly common though. When your entire story comes to life in your office, it's near impossible to be certain how the audience will react to a character or story. I wouldn't cite that down to fan pressure, just how a creative process works.

Sometimes you can't see or even guess that something you intended to throw away would become popular. Especially when the only audience you have while writing is the wall in front of you.

Arrow has been dropping because of the over-focus on Felicity Smoak and her being the girlfriend of Oliver Queen when it should be Diana Lance that should be his girlfriend. And some fans have been complaining that Smoak is a Mary Sue made bigger by Berlanti's caving in to Tumblrinas.

Felicity is fine as the love interest. In theory. It's just that as soon as she became the love interest she was extremely less interesting.

I got fed up of watching it, but she very quickly fell into the trap of annoying girlfriend. It's one of my pet hates when someone in a TV show joins a relationship and they (or she, always a she) suddenly becomes grumpy, demanding and the entire relationship becomes the leads fight to stabilise everything.

It wouldn't matter if it was Diana or Felicity or Diggle.
 
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