Yes.
However, being derivative of one of the best television shows in the history of the medium is not such a bad thing, after all.
Discovery and "The Orville" Comparisons
- Thread starter Jedi_Master
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Yes.
However, being derivative of one of the best television shows in the history of the medium is not such a bad thing, after all.
It doesn't need absolute verisimilitude. Despite how thinly rendered these morality dilemmas are rendered or how much goofy humor is laced in them, they're touching off a fair amount of debate about the underlying issues they raise online. Would you not call that a success? Remember that Gulliver's Travels was in large part the basis for Trek and it was satirical humor. And think of how much mileage Idiocracy has gotten since it has retroactively seemed prescient.
Considering that Blade Runner 2049 is not doing well I'd say inserting social commentary into a comedy might have a better chance of inspiring discussion about these issues than going the grimdark art-house route.
It doesn't need absolute verisimilitude. Despite how thinly rendered these morality dilemmas are rendered or how much goofy humor is laced in them, they're touching off a fair amount of debate about the underlying issues they raise online. Would you not call that a success? Remember that Gulliver's Travels was in large part the basis for Trek and it was satirical humor. And think of how much mileage Idiocracy has gotten since it has retroactively seemed prescient.
Considering that Blade Runner 2049 is not doing well I'd say inserting social commentary into a comedy might have a better chance of inspiring discussion about these issues than going the grimdark art-house route.
whereas i can appreciate the social points made in the show, i dont typically judge a show by whether or not its making a social point. its just neutral for me. i have all my discussions about issues and news and politics and social problems elsewhere. by the time i get to watching tv or listening to music im already pretty "issued" out. but youre right the episode really nailed a discussion topic.
that being said i find it closer to idiocracy that so many need dry hump comedy to discuss an issue.
I agree with this. The fact that dry humping the statue was the central element of the episode distract us from the gravity of the situation. If it was not the central part, it would have been ok.
I thought about it while watching the episode but I brush it off and instead considered he did "some kind" of grave offense in an alien culture (like burning the flag or something). Which is what we are suppose to understand. For those alien, it was a great offense.
It's almost impossible to imagine anyone in the world would dry hump a statue in that particular situation. They are are some kind of patrol vessel in search of missing scientists on an alien planet they know little about. And this member of the crew, he's supposed to be some kind of professional, dry hump a statue. And this event becomes the central part of the episode. If it was just a joke during the visit to the alien planet, it would have been fine, but they made it the central part of the episode. We can imagine a bunch of college kid at the exit of bars dry humping a statue ("look at the boobies on that statue", then jump on it, trying to make out with it, just for laugh and because you're drunk). But this was not a Friday night with friends, it was a potentially dangerous mission on an alien planet and this become the central part of the episode.
We know the Orville is not the flagship like the USS enterprise was in TNG. Manned by the best people/diplomats/doctor/warriors/scientists in the fleet with a lot of experience. But still, it's a bit too much. On an alien planet, you must know you have to be careful about strange laws and regulations.
On the other hand what the missing scientists did made more sense. They just didn't give up their seat to a pregnant woman. They didn't see her anyway and they are not used to be in a culture where every actions you make can become a social media frenzy and justice system. The scientists were a bit negligent (since they knew about that culture) but not that much (you can't think of everything, those aliens are used to live in that environment).
It's ok to dry hump a statue during the show, but just don't make it the central part of the episode. Personally, I just brush it all off as some kind of great offense. I already posted a very short comment. I enjoyed the episode quite a lot.
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Yes. And it was the worst episode of Star Trek ever produced.
What Archer did was stupid. So was what Lamarr did. The only saving grace for Archer was that at least the Ent writers weren't expecting us to find the bit funny.
I imagine that from a production standpoint it's a cost-saving measure, but from an in-universe standpoint the Krill appear to be both an almost completely militarized society as well as a religious theocracy, so two things that demand conformity on a mass scale. In addition, they are extremely allergic to bright light, so their ships and presumably their homeworld are dark with less emphasis on color variation and visual detail.
They indoctrinate their children into their religious/military command structure from early childhood aboard their fleet vessels. The children wear lighter versions of the standard military uniforms, as do their indoctrinators / teachers. Every person aboard ship wears the same combat uniforms regardless of duties aboard ship, implying that even the ship's janitor or cook is expected to take up arms. Ground troops wear slightly heavier armor with retractable helmets built in (to protect from light exposure as much as atmospheric concerns).
The only break from the solid black matte uniform coloring is the gold trim applied to flag level officers and the red robes of the priest caste, which operate not only as religious leaders and indoctrinators, but almost like political officers aboard old Warsaw Pact ships, able to advise and oversee the command level officers and make sure the crew is conforming to the will of their god, Avis.
(click to enlarge)
That was the premise of the show, and recurred a couple of times, and at odd intervals. In my opinion, things like "Basics" or even "Prime Factors" were you see Maquis crewmembers willing to push the boundaries of the rules, because they don't feel bound by them, could have been more recurring themes, rather than occasional reminders.
Yes, she routinely bends the rules in her favor only to turn around slap other officers for doing the same (Temporal Prime Directive against Tom, only to violate it herself to save Tuvok. Intervening in a Borg Civil War, then barking at Ransom for violating the Prime Directive, violating another sovereign power's space and calls them "bullies" for it) and those are just off the top of my head.
Not saying Janeway didn't have good moments, but she also had some severe headscratching moments.
As for TNG-lite, I'll give a better explanation, since you requested it, from another review site:
Source
I'll never say VOY was a terrible series, but it captivated me less than things like TOS, DS9 and even Kelvin Trek. I think it could have been just a little bit more, though.
I think a good alternative might have been to have LaMarr needing to go to the bathroom, and going to pee in an alleyway. Someone could have captured it on camera, and what is a relatively benign act, can turn ugly in this upvote/downvote system.
Also, having the votes get to 9,999,998 was a little cheesy too. It would have been more interesting (imo) to show how easily the public can be swayed. Instead of having the votes get to a certain point and stop, show them reversing, as in, the more people upvote, the more the downvoters go back and change their own vote.
Oh, and LaMarr is a dumb, dumb sugar plumb. Malloy isn't very smart, but he's competent at his job. He can even hug the donkey.
Other than that, I really like the episode. Love the story and concept, so very relevant.
Those aren't examples of her being written inconsistently. By Tom, do you mean when he tried to blow the thingamajigger in the water planet? He was wrong, and insubordinate. And by save Tuvok, do you mean Endgame?
Barking at Ransom? Interesting choice of phrasing. Poor old Ransom. What exactly was this guy doing? He was capturing people, murdering them, cooking them down for their life juice, and feeding it into his engine. He was truly committing abominations. She was appalled, as anyone should be.
I don't understand the excerpt. Are they talking about the Kazon? Who was demonized in that storyline? The episode showed that the (I forget the name of the race that used to rule the Kazon) were not above reproach simply because they shared the same enemy as Janeway, and looked and talked like humans. They were downtrodden, and Janeway saw an opportunity to secure safety for her ship, bring some stability to the area, and help out those aliens, but looks are deceiving. The Kazon are depicted sympathetically in this episode.
I don't wish to derail this thread. I would just like some clear examples of "inconsistently written Janeway" or the other items when a "drive by" comment like that is made. People drop in randomly in the Voyager forum repeating the same stuff almost word for word, but never give any examples. It be nice to have a few that I can take home and measure against the other captains. I appreciate the link, but he's just making generalizations. Like, Voyager didn't experiment with new ideas? They experimented with all sorts of ideas, concepts, themes, etc. They experimented with humor, and also experimented with some very dark themes, like the episode about Sudor. They took risks, like playing out the trolley scenario in Tuvix, but not giving anyone the easy way out. Or likewise in Death Wish. They showed a darker side to artificial intelligence(and didn't use an evil twin to do it.) in the episode with that creepy sanitation hologram that killed his crew. I could go all day.
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Then you and I have a different definition of inconsistent, which is fine by me. There are times when Janeway is strict and holds fast to the rules ("Now and Again" is the episode I'm referring to, which involves the Temporal Prime Directive and Tom's desire to save a planet from imminent destruction), and then in Endgame, apparently the rules matter little.
My struggle is that it rarely feels like it matters further down the line. The scene with Tuvix? Great scene and morally complex-doesn't come up again. What about "Real Life" where the Doctor has to watch his holographic daughter die?
Yeah, they try things. And then move on. That's my struggle. Individual episodes are great, but the overarching set up of the show is one that things matter. Which, I'm sorry, a lot of things don't feel like they matter.
So, great episodes? Yes? Interesting characters? Sometimes. But, nothing that makes really keeps me invested.
YMMV.
Not even close. I'll take "A Night in Sickbay" over a lot of episodes across all the series any day of the week. There are a lot of shitty Star Trek episodes. Starting in TOS, with "The Alternative Factor".
I thought it was hilarious. I do think we're supposed to interpret the episode with a certain amount of humor.
The beautiful thing about episodic television, is that if a certain concept doesn't work, you aren't stuck with it for a season or the entirety of a series run. To me, I can't imagine revisiting the first season of Discovery ever again once its done. Heck, I haven't even watched the last three episodes of it more than once. A first for Star Trek since I started watching in 1975.
Amen. "The Alternative Factor," anyone? Turnabout Intruder?
As a dog-lover, I never quite understood why "A Night in Sickbay" annoyed people so much.
You obviously haven’t spent much time around military personnel.
i said professional organization.
they were on a cultural / scientific mission.
As a dog-lover, I never quite understood why "A Night in Sickbay" annoyed people so much.
I think it points to Star Trek fans taking Star Trek a little too seriously when they can't accept something like "A Night in Sickbay" in the universe.
That is the truly beautiful thing about episodic TV. I personally just think VOY set itself up to be more serialized, then fell back on episodic TV.
DSC is something I enjoy the details and rewatching certain parts of episodes. I guess I make my own episodic rewatch experience
I don't mind the dog in "A Night in Sickbay." It's the humans that annoy me.Amen. "The Alternative Factor," anyone? Turnabout Intruder?
As a dog-lover, I never quite understood why "A Night in Sickbay" annoyed people so much.
As a dog-lover, I never quite understood why "A Night in Sickbay" annoyed people so much.
It's comedy that's painfully unfunny. I laughed not once, and while I was not laughing I found Archer at his most unlikable. The main character of the show was presented as a bratty four-year-old throwing a tantrum for 45 minutes. I already didn't like Archer very much but A Night in Sickbay made me hate him. Not enjoyable, not funny, annoying, obnoxious – I could write synonymous for pages.
It's the Movie 43 of Star Trek episodes.
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Inconceivable!
That's not inconsistent writing. This is Janeway on one of her first incidents lost in space, compared to Janeway 30 years later, an old woman, bitter and cynical. She no longer cares. This is all highlighted in dialogue, and is the argument between her and her younger self.
We all have regrets. Some people have all-consuming regrets and would do anything to go back and change things. Admiral Janeway decided she would do this. 30 years younger Captain Janeway would never have(Not that the situations are all that similar anyway. In Now and Again, Janeway was responsible for destroying a world. She figured out how to undo that damage)
This is a poor example for trying to prove that a) Janeway is written inconsistently, or b) Janeway was written more inconsistently than other captains. Where's the examples of Janeway being bipolar from episode to episode?
Why does Tuvix need to be addressed again(Even though it was actually referenced again) Why is Voyager supposed to be more serialized than the other shows, then faulted because it isn't? And how many crazy, life altering incidents in TNG, and DS9 happened and were never addressed again?
It will happen again in Discovery, as serialized shows are not above this sort of thing. At all.
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