Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

[Damian]

The one time no one will complain about a Trek novel being too recappy at the beginning, right?

Haha. Yeah. Though I never really complained about that. I always find the refreshers helpful. Otherwise I'm like, hmm, this seems familiar for some reason. I know I've heard of the Borg somewhere before...kidding. But usually it's good when an author throws in a little reminder, as long as it's to the point and related to the current story in some way.

 

[David cgc]

Haha. Yeah. Though I never really complained about that. I always find the refreshers helpful. Otherwise I'm like, hmm, this seems familiar for some reason. I know I've heard of the Borg somewhere before...kidding. But usually it's good when an author throws in a little reminder, as long as it's to the point and related to the current story in some way.

It's a matter of style. CLB, for instance, likes to weave it in with details that flesh out how it applies to the current story in such a way that it's hard to tell recaps from "new" backstory, while other writers just want to get it over with and drop in a couple solid paragraphs summing things up to make sure we're all on the same page so we can get things moving again.

 

[Damian]

I'm pretty sure the stuff about Col. Green and WWII in "Demons"/"Terra Prime" is incompatible with Federation, although of course First Contact had already superseded that book.

Yeah. Not very compatible. It's possible some elements could fit. The Optimum Movement for instance probably would still fit as they were concerned with eugenics (though in a different way then Khan and his supermen). And it fits Colonel Green's speech seen in Terra Prime. But the parts with Zefram Cochrane would probably not work, and dates would obviously need to be adjusted.

I'd say if someone wanted to do a WWIII story in the Star Trek universe, they probably could incorporate elements of about 1/3 of "Federation" if they dropped Zefram Cochrane since he didn't develop warp drive until AFTER WWIII (unlike in the novel), and altered the dates, and somehow incorporated Optimum into one of the factions, which shouldn't be hard since we know little about the players in WWIII.

True, but until I hear anything definitive otherwise I'm all about the hope

Me too. I'm just not all that confident. I noted on the other post a few key elements would be needed. Rene for one, and I noted also that could help create some stories. That would probably be the biggest. Other elements all depend on how much they reference the intervening years. If they kept Rene (and his mother being Dr Crusher though she does not need to still be married to Picard, or she could be away on a mission or something if McFadden isn't on the show), and were more forward thinking and less concerned with what happened in the past, it's possible they could avoid referencing the novels in large part and stepping on toes at the same time. It all depends on their focus. If they simply say Picard left Starfleet 5 years ago because he wanted new challenges and that was all and they moved on from there, then the relaunch novels are probably safe to some extent. But if they go with Picard being fatherless and still fighting the Borg (frankly as much as I liked the Borg, I'd be ok with them not being referenced), then it's over for at least TNG relaunch, curtains I say.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Last time on Star Trek: The Next Generation....

“A computer program’s been running everything for two centuries!”

“What do you mean these admirals and Picard ousted a Federation President?”

“Picard, you’re toast. Your ass is mine.”

“I’M GETTING A NEW TV SHOW! SUCK IT, AKAAR!”

And now...the continuation.......

 

[JD]

Haha. Yeah. Though I never really complained about that. I always find the refreshers helpful. Otherwise I'm like, hmm, this seems familiar for some reason. I know I've heard of the Borg somewhere before...kidding. But usually it's good when an author throws in a little reminder, as long as it's to the point and related to the current story in some way.

I'm reading the second Prey book right now, and the historians note at the beginning included a quick recap of the first book, I wouldn't mind seeing that become a regular thing.

 

[JoeZhang]

If they simply say Picard left Starfleet 5 years ago because he wanted new challenges and that was all and they moved on from there, then the relaunch novels are probably safe to some extent. But if they go with Picard being fatherless and still fighting the Borg (frankly as much as I liked the Borg, I'd be ok with them not being referenced), then it's over for at least TNG relaunch, curtains I say.

If often not the stuff we think that is all the problem - it's likely something completely new.

So we are looking at the Borg but the answer might be that Titan was lost with all hands twenty years ago or that Picard suffered a terrible mysterious accident that forced him to leave the Fleet twenty years ago.

More likely it's just a combination of smaller factors - too many small changes to the backstories and histories of characters.

 

[Damian]

If often not the stuff we think that is all the problem - it's likely something completely new.

So we are looking at the Borg but the answer might be that Titan was lost with all hands twenty years ago or that Picard suffered a terrible mysterious accident that forced him to leave the Fleet twenty years ago.

More likely it's just a combination of smaller factors - too many small changes to the backstories and histories of characters.

Yeah, the problem is there is a huge backstory now in the novels. A single line of dialogue could undo something significant. There's a lot of factors. If it's just old characters in new positions, well, that's simple enough for future novels to explain. Like Geordi is a professor at the Academy, well a future book can have him go in that direction at some point. It all depends on how much history they incorporate into the new show really. If very little and if they focus on mostly new things then the risk is lessened.

I'd be curious though what Patrick Stewart would think about some of the storylines, particularly Picard having a son in the novels. I wonder, how would Stewart think about that. If Rene were to be used he'd be a teenager by the timeframe of the show. Is that something Stewart would warm to? It's possible he may like the idea and may feel it opens up some possibilities for Picard. Or he may hate it (though I tend to think he'd at least be open to the idea). At lot depends on that. Does he care if the Borg are featured or not? There's a lot of unknowns with just Stewart at this point.

I am curious sometimes about how the original actors would feel about their characters in the novels. I mean, I doubt many have read them (the few times they are asked they usually seem unaware of their character's plotlines in the books). How does Brent Spiner feel about Data's resurrection. What about Avery Brooks and Sisko. I find the novels pretty faithful to the original characters in large part. I sometimes wonder if one of them sat down and read one of the relaunch novels how would they feel about their characters portrayal?

 

[The Wormhole]

I think they will take us at least as far as the destruction of Romulus, which is only months away in the universe.

I wouldn't be too certain of that. The historical note in Fortunes of War places it in "late 2386" and we have no real idea when exactly in 2387 Hobus happens. It could still theoretically be a whole year away, in universe. Which could theoretically take several years to reach in the real world. Remember just how long novel continuity spent in the year 2376 in the early 2000s?

I sometimes wonder if one of them sat down and read one of the relaunch novels how would they feel about their characters portrayal?

Nana Visitor doesn't care for what the novels did with Kira.

 

[Damian]

I wouldn't be too certain of that. The historical note in Fortunes of War places it in "late 2386" and we have no real idea when exactly in 2387 Hobus happens. It could still theoretically be a whole year away, in universe. Which could theoretically take several years to reach in the real world. Remember just how long novel continuity spent in the year 2376 in the early 2000s?

Nana Visitor doesn't care for what the novels did with Kira.

I tend to think if the nu-TNG show makes it impossible for the relaunch novels to exist then they'd likely move the story forward pretty quickly to get to Romulus' destruction and it's immediate effects. I honestly don't think they'll leave a big story like that hanging. After all, Star Trek (2009) gave us an outline of what occurred but there is at least a novels worth of story that could be told. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they had a trilogy on that.

Maybe it's possible they've been slow-walking us to 2387 because of the whole Bad Robot licensing, which I assume included the destruction of Romulus. Now that that particular issue seems to be settled (at last that's my impression) they may move things forward more quickly.

According to the Countdown comics the 2387 portion of the story takes place around Stardate 64333.4, which assuming it still uses TNG scale leads me to think it's in the timeframe around March or April of that year. That's of course assuming they adopt the comic book timeframe for it.

 

[The Wormhole]

I tend to think if the nu-TNG show makes it impossible for the relaunch novels to exist then they'd likely move the story forward pretty quickly to get to Romulus' destruction and it's immediate effects. I honestly don't think they'll leave a big story like that hanging.

Honestly, I can see it being a low priority. The Hobus story has been told, in the Countdown comics. Retelling that story a decade later in a manner that is consistent with the novel continuity probably isn't going to matter if the novel continuity does in fact come to an end. And regardless, now that we have a Trek TV series on the air, another one being developed and a possibility of a third (if CBS taking a trademark on the title "Star Trek Reliant" means anything) twelve novels a year to be quickly eaten up by tie-in material related to the current shows and there are better things to do with the remaining slots than tell a story from the comics in prose form.

Besides, Countdown was a story co-developed by Orci himself. It's basically the "official" account of Hobus anyway and a lot closer to being canon than anything Pocket is going to publish on the matter.

 

[Damian]

Honestly, I can see it being a low priority. The Hobus story has been told, in the Countdown comics. Retelling that story a decade later in a manner that is consistent with the novel continuity probably isn't going to matter if the novel continuity does in fact come to an end. And regardless, now that we have a Trek TV series on the air, another one being developed and a possibility of a third (if CBS taking a trademark on the title "Star Trek Reliant" means anything) twelve novels a year to be quickly eaten up by tie-in material related to the current shows and there are better things to do with the remaining slots than tell a story from the comics in prose form.

Besides, Countdown was a story co-developed by Orci himself. It's basically the "official" account of Hobus anyway and a lot closer to being canon than anything Pocket is going to publish on the matter.

Well, that would be a kick in the pants to those of us who do follow the novels. Being Romulus is an intergral part of the Typhon Pact I'd love to see the effect the destruction of Romulus has on that alliance (which is a bit on shaky ground to begin with).

Though to be honest, if all future novels are going to be in trade paperback form for $16 each, I doubt I'd be buying 12 novels every year anymore. At that point I'd have to start picking and choosing what I buy and sacrificing the others (or at least waiting until some later date when maybe they come down in price, or get them used).

 

[Christopher]

Besides, Countdown was a story co-developed by Orci himself. It's basically the "official" account of Hobus anyway and a lot closer to being canon than anything Pocket is going to publish on the matter.

Not really. I'm pretty sure the significance (and probably the extent) of Orci's involvement in the comics was overstated for promotional purposes. Sure, he was nominally responsible for vetting what his then-employee Mike Johnson outlined and wrote, and he had some input into the process to the extent that he could while he was busy doing other things, but it's clear from reading the comics that there was some disconnect between how Johnson interpreted things and how the filmmakers intended them. For instance, the film gave the impression that Spock and Nero had never met before the supernova, while Countdown established a prior friendship between them. And the filmmakers intended that the Kelvin timeline was created by Nero's time travel and that the characters looked the same in-story (since Spock Prime recognized them on sight), yet Johnson's comics have consistently been based on the assumption that it's one of an infinite number of pre-existing alternate realities and the characters actually do look different in different universes. Between those and other inconsistencies, my impression has always been that Orci's supervision of the comics was fairly hands-off; I figure he just gave Johnson some broad outlines of what was happening in the movies and then let Johnson do his own thing from there. (For instance, I have no doubt that the mention of "the Mudd incident" in STID was meant by the filmmakers to be a nod to an unseen encounter with Harry Mudd, but Johnson bizarrely turned it into an encounter with a half-Bajoran woman named Mudd.)

 

[Damian]

I think we've already seen the novels going in a different direction then the Countdown comics. For instance Data is captain of the Enterprise in the comics, yet in the novels he decided not to rejoin Starfleet. I highly doubt that in a year or less he will rejoin Starfleet and suddenly be given command of the flagship of Starfleet.

My guess is the novels will go in a largely different direction if they get to that point. There may be a couple broad similarities, like Data being resurrected for example, and the timeframe of the destruction (which at least year wise was pretty well established in the movie). I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of the destruction matched up with the comics either.

But outside of that I expect it will probably be pretty different from the comic storyline.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm pretty sure the significance (and probably the extent) of Orci's involvement in the comics was overstated for promotional purposes. Sure, he was nominally responsible for vetting what his then-employee Mike Johnson outlined and wrote, and he had some input into the process to the extent that he could while he was busy doing other things,

Well, he has a "Story Development" credit on Countdown and Countdown to Darkness as opposed to the "Story Consultant" credit he had for the Ongoing series, suggesting his role in those two stories is somewhat more significant. Which makes some sense, given they were direct lead-ins to the movies.

it's clear from reading the comics that there was some disconnect between how Johnson interpreted things and how the filmmakers intended them. For instance, the film gave the impression that Spock and Nero had never met before the supernova, while Countdown established a prior friendship between them.

IIRC, the 2387 stuff we see in the film is the result of a re-edit done by Abrams something like two weeks prior to its release. The original version, was more in line with what we saw in the comics.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

I noted on the other post a few key elements would be needed. Rene for one, and I noted also that could help create some stories.

I wouldn't say Rene would be needed. Crusher hardly mentioned Wesley at all after his departure, that didnt mean he stopped existing or wasn't her son anymore, he just wasn't mentioned because he wasn't relevant to the story.

I'd have no problem with him not being mentioned/included, I'd just prefer if they didn't specifically state "Picard still doesn't have any children".

But if they go with Picard being fatherless and still fighting the Borg (frankly as much as I liked the Borg, I'd be ok with them not being referenced),

Yeah, I feel like First Contact gave Picard and the Borg some closure (which I didn't like the relaunch dragging up again), and I'd want to see something new anyway.

I'm reading the second Prey book right now, and the historians note at the beginning included a quick recap of the first book, I wouldn't mind seeing that become a regular thing.

Yeah, historian's notes arw a good place for that. I'm reading book 3, and I'd say too much gets recapped in the novel itself which is annoying and unnecessary.

 

[Damian]

I wouldn't say Rene would be needed. Crusher hardly mentioned Wesley at all after his departure, that didnt mean he stopped existing or wasn't her son anymore, he just wasn't mentioned because he wasn't relevant to the story.

I'd have no problem with him not being mentioned/included, I'd just prefer if they didn't specifically state "Picard still doesn't have any children".

But that was once Wesley became an adult. I think Rene would be what, 15 or 16 by the time this show will take place. There'd probably have to be some reference to him if they keep that storyline intact, though he could be off with his mother somewhere and a token mention made of it. I just think there is some story potential there, as long as they didn't turn the character into Wesley 2.0. I'd rather he present challenges for Picard, maybe be the anti-Wesley. Wouldn't that be something. Picard, the captain who didn't want kids on the ship to begin with, having to deal with a difficult teenager

Yeah, I feel like First Contact gave Picard and the Borg some closure (which I didn't like the relaunch dragging up again), and I'd want to see something new anyway.

The Destiny novels were epic though. And one good thing about them, esp. if we've had our fill, is that taking Destiny into account the Borg are gone, basically never to return.

 

[Christopher]

Well, he has a "Story Development" credit on Countdown and Countdown to Darkness as opposed to the "Story Consultant" credit he had for the Ongoing series, suggesting his role in those two stories is somewhat more significant. Which makes some sense, given they were direct lead-ins to the movies.

Sure, but that doesn't make the stories "canon." Orci himself was the first to refute that idea, except in that one TrekMovie interview where the interviewer obnoxiously browbeat him into agreeing that the comics were canon and he then retracted it a few hours later in the article comments. It just means he got involved to make sure the tie-ins were reasonably consistent with the movies, much like Kirsten Beyer has done on the Discovery novels. That has nothing to do with canon; it's just about quality control on the merchandising (because that's what tie-ins are when you get right down to it). It's about making them feel like plausible continuations or forerunners to the canonical stories, so that there aren't any major errors that drag people out of the narrative.

IIRC, the 2387 stuff we see in the film is the result of a re-edit done by Abrams something like two weeks prior to its release. The original version, was more in line with what we saw in the comics.

Which just drives home the point that the comics aren't canonical. Even the involvement of one of the writers doesn't guarantee consistency with the finished work, precisely because the director has the power to change things in editing and override the script. And it's only the finished work that matters when talking about canon.

 

[Damian]

Sort of reminds me of Jeri Taylor's Voyager novels. That was the closest time that I can recall where something not on screen was almost canon (I think they even said they were canon at one point)....until they weren't. Even in that case the novels were eventually overwritten.

I think that's probably why the Discovery novel writers continue to warn us that while the novels thus far are consistent with the show, that can change at any time.

Makes you wonder sometimes why we all bother with all this extra-universe stuff. But then I think, they're still good stories. And some talk about head canon--well I usually include novels in my overall Star Trek story. Even if a book was overwritten by official canon, I still will include parts of novels that are consistent with canon.

And one thing TNG episode "Parallels" showed us, in canon, is that there are a multitude of parallel timelines in Star Trek, so maybe some of those lines that are now 'defunct' still exist in one of those alternate timelines somewhere.

 

[Christopher]

Canon has never really meant guaranteed consistency -- just ask Bobby Ewing on Dallas. Or ask Tony Stark whether he got injured in Vietnam or Afghanistan. Canons can contradict themselves without tie-ins being involved at all, so there's no way to make tie-ins any more immune from contradiction. It's just a matter of what stories the current creators want to tell and how they choose to interpret the fictional universe to suit their needs and their current audience's expectations.

 

[Damian]

Canon has never really meant guaranteed consistency -- just ask Bobby Ewing on Dallas. Or ask Tony Stark whether he got injured in Vietnam or Afghanistan. Canons can contradict themselves without tie-ins being involved at all, so there's no way to make tie-ins any more immune from contradiction. It's just a matter of what stories the current creators want to tell and how they choose to interpret the fictional universe to suit their needs and their current audience's expectations.

Haha, yeah true enough. I'm a Dallas fan (don't ask me how--though oddly enough there are a number of Trek alumni that worked on the show including Jeffries and DC Fontana among a huge number of actors from Trek past and present). The whole Bobby Ewing dream season was the absolute worse.

I have the series on DVD and just for the fun of it I watched the final episode of season 8 when he 'died' then the first episode of season 10 immediately after when he was back. There was a huge discontinuity. The storylines really didn't fit. I think they were hoping the fans wouldn't notice it, but Dallas took a huge hit after that. Plus there were a number of season 9 storylines and characters that people had become invested in that were completely jettisoned. Some good stories too, Ray and Donna adopting a deaf child for instance, Sue Ellen helping run the fundraising for a medical clinic and so on. Not to mention the whole ridiculous idea of it all being just Pam's dream. They didn't even handle that well. I mean if you were watching it for the first time, it wasn't exactly clear that everything from season 9 was gone, every last shred of it. People at the time were rightfully like WTF. Though in general, outside of that, Dallas did a fairly decent job keeping the storyline straight most of the time.

I always thought they would have been better off just saying Bobby fakes his death to secretly go get treatment. I know it's terribly cliché and very soap opera-ish, but it was a soap opera. And frankly it was probably the only way to get Bobby Ewing back without trashing an entire season.

Well I digress. I guess I've been wanting to whine about that for a long time and it all just came out. At least Star Trek never did anything that crazy. They never wiped out an entire season and just said it was Commander Riker's dream (I guess Troi would be a better parallel, but still).