Spoilers Discovery and the Novelverse - TV show discussion thread

This tells us more about Winn than Kira, really.

 

Maybe all the more reason for a change of vocation after Bajor has achieved it's freedom?

 

Star Trek Online did that (minus Ro, one of their original characters is Commander of DS9)

Kira was the Kai in STO, but due to story reasons she stepped down and her commission in Starfleet was re-activated

Makes me wonder if they did that because they knew of Vistor’s objections. Or if because Starfleet Kira is just cooler.

 

I didn't really have a problem with Vedek Kira personally. Even later in the show she was less fiery. Like anybody she grew as a person. She learned that fiery, hostile personality served her well during the Occupation, but now that Bajor has largely recovered, has a stable government and is part of the Federation she realized that kind of attitude wouldn't serve her well.

My impression is she became a Vedek because she had taken her life as far as she thought she could go. She became a Captain in charge of Deep Space Nine. Oversaw Bajor's admittance to the Federation, something she came to see as very important. My impression was that once that was completed she felt her job on the station, and in Starfleet was completed to her satisfaction. That she was ready for a new challenge.

Her faith was always strong. But I'm not sure that's why she became a Vedek. I think despite her strong faith, she always felt something was missing. She regretted her past acts in the resistance, though necessary, might not be in line with her faith. She even voiced concerns at times that the Prophets may be disappointed in her or not feel she was worthy. I think that's why she became a Vedek. To fill in those missing parts of her life. That was the new challenge she wanted to pursue, the one thing in her life she felt needed some work.

And in some ways she would make the perfect religious person (whether it be a 'Vedek', priest, pastor, whatever you want to call it). Somebody who has a deep faith but always felt like they were reaching for something deeper. Somebody who is well aware of their faults, has lived them and always knew there was always ways to grow. In a way, as a person of faith myself, I would love someone like that as my priest, someone who had a strong, deep faith, and was a strong person, but also humble in her faith, knowing that her strong faith didn't make her better then everyone else. Knowing she had faults and wasn't perfect. And was willing to share that faith with anyone who wanted that faith in their lives. And didn't judge others.

 

Like I said in my other post, she is The Hand of the Prophets, so she did have a special destiny, she just isn't The Emissary.

 

Not really. The only thing in the show she did specifically at the Prophets' bidding was when she became host to one in The Reckoning. But that was more random chance than anything else, given she was in the temple at the time the Prophet. To suggest she has some sort of connection to the Prophets because of that is like suggesting Jake is connected to the Pah-Wraiths. Or Keiko, for that matter.

That's really not my read on things at all. While Kira's time in the Resistance may have required her to do things she wasn't proud of, I never got the impression she regretted being part of the Resistance. She may have regrets about certain decisions she made, but she was 100% committed to the Resistance and the cause of freeing Bajor.

As for not being "in line with her faith" I definitely disagree there. While the Bajoran religion is one which promotes peaceful living, it doesn't condemn legitimate military action, which fighting of an occupying alien invasion force would certainly qualify as.

 

I’ve never really felt like Kira’s transition to Vedek has made sense. Even when Ascendance took us back to the rough timeframe of 2376-ish, talking about Kira having started questioned if she’s on the right path, it really felt like trying to convince the reader that this fit her development, rather than it being the natural growth of her character development. I think I described it at the time as basically trying to tell us she’s on this path and she was heading down this path before the DS9 books’ time tangle, while not actually attempting to show it.

That said, I did feel The Long Mirage did use Vedek Kira in a way that felt like Kira, and, for the story’s purposes, her being a Vedek fit. So it may be that this development is settling in. But it still feels wrong for the Kira who we saw on the show proper, or the novels that preceded this change.

 

I didn't say she regretted being part of the resistance. What I noted is that she regretted her past acts in the resistance, or at least some of them. In "Battle Lines" she was even worried that the Prophets might not forgive her for some of those actions. In the same vein, some of those actions "might" not be in line with her faith. It was never my intent to say all of her actions. But undoubtedly some of her actions may have been questionable or she would not have been so concerned about those.

For me, I just saw it a different way with her becoming Vedek. For me it seemed perfectly natural. She achieved everything she thought she could in her position on DS9, including Bajor becoming part of the Federation. It was my impression that she felt it was time to start a new chapter in her life. She always had a strong faith...now that doesn't always mean that person would enter a religious life. I like to think my faith is strong, but becoming a priest or other religious vocation was not in the cards for me. But for Kira it made sense to me. She had achieved a great deal in a secular life, and achieved her goals. Her faith was just as important to her as those goals, and when those goals were all met, she wanted to move onto that other important factor of her life. Her faith. That's why I thought she had become a Vedek, to work on her life's goals in that important aspect of her personality. To me it made perfect sense.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Keiko, yes, that was luck of the draw. She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. They probably would have preferred the Chief himself since he was the one they really needed. But Jake I did think was specially chosen by the Pah-Wraiths because of his being the Emissary's son. It's not because Jake was 'evil' or a 'bad person'. But because he was Sisko's son. It made it that much more difficult for him to allow the reckoning to occur. They probably were hoping Sisko wouldn't allow the Prophets to win since it would mean Jake's life, in which case they win. And even if they lost they'd win because if Jake had died, Sisko's own faith would have at the least been shaken to some extent.

As far as Kira, I'm sort of 50/50 on that. She had a strong faith in the prophets and would have no problem becoming their vessel. And she was available and in the right place. I don't believe she would have been 'chosen' if her faith was weak. If another person of strong faith in the Prophets were available would they have been chosen instead? I'm not sure.

 

We can sit around and argue our opinions on whether Kira would enter a religious life. We all have our views on that one. However, having her being a Vedek is definitely a step too far. A Vedek is basically the Bajoran religion's equivalent to a bishop, and no one, no matter how devout they are becomes a bishop within five years of entering religious life.

 

A religious life always seemed like it would be an ill fit for someone like Kira.

 

Equivalent rank in the hierarchy, but those such as Bareil achieved it at a relatively young age. I see it as a title you could specifically train for, like a PhD. While most would become a prylar (Ba/Bsc), those with more devotion woukd take the more dedicated path.

 

I always equated a Vedek with a priest or pastor. A Prylar to me seemed equivalent to a Brother or maybe a permanent Deacon. Though that's just a loose equivalence IMO.

To me it seemed perfectly natural. Obviously I'm in the minority since I seem to be the only one that feels it's a good fit.

But it may be academic. Who knows if there will be any further DS9 books, esp. if the nu-TNG show ends up cancelling out the 24th century relaunches.

 

I'm not saying it is academic, just that that may be a closer analogy in terms of attaining titles. Bajor is a completely alien culture and things won't necessarily be directly translatable into our own religious institutions.

Technically Buddhism isn't even a religion, but 'religion' is the closest box the west has to put it in, so even our own cultures aren't directly compatible in that way.

 

No, I mean academic in the sense that I have my doubts DS9 will continue in the relaunches.

 

Even if you want to go with that, a priest/pastor still takes years of study and other forms of religious service to attain. I'm no expert, but it wouldn't surprise me if it took more than five years.

 

Maybe. We may be comparing apples to oranges though. Perhaps the title Vedek is given to someone once they devote themselves to the ministry. Or something in between. It's one element of Bajoran religious life we're never clued into to. I wouldn't necessarily apply Earth religious customs to Bajoran. It may be vastly different.

There may even be different aspects of a Vedek that are similar to a Bishop and some aspects like a Deacon. I never got the impression there's anything between Vedek and Kai, so there may even be different levels of Vedeks. We've seen some Vedeks serve alone, like on DS9, others that appear to be together in a conclave like organization on Bajor.

 

Have any of the novels given an age for the D7 Design from TOS?

 

I feel like the April story in Enterprise Logs suggested the D7 was brand-new when the Enterprise was also brand-new.

 

A very sad state of affairs!