Disconnect in Redemption (S04E26 + S05E01)

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Lighthammer, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 4, 2002
    I was thinking about this during a recent rewatch of the episode - I find myself feeling like there is a slight disconnect with the political atmosphere to this episode.

    Let's put aside for a second the unfavorable light the Durass Family is portrayed in throughout all of Star Trek history (which really is just convenient heels, after a fashion for given plots). Lets think about what they were actually trying to accomplish: In this 2 part episode they wanted to create a condition where the Klingon Empire was on friendly terms with BOTH the Federation and the Romulan Empires. They may have been going about this in a very duplicitous way, but after a fashion, it had the potential to bring peace between the three waring factions.

    Gowran didn't exactly have a reputation for being exceedingly honorable. He didn't have the taint of his father being a traitor, but in the long run, his actions were just as bad if not worse then Durass's father. That's not to suggest the characters could peer into the future and see his actions any less then the writers likely had any idea they would take Gowran in DS9, but certainly, even by the time Redemption played, we knew Gowran was no where near a saint or even remotely close to the leader the Klingon empire needed.

    If the Durass Family would have been made out to hate the Federation more or were trying to manipulate the Federation, a lot of the events would have made more sense, but after a fashion, the Durass sisters made it pretty clear they didn't want the Federation as enemies and probably weren't going to make a move against breaking the treaty. That means, after a fashion, if they would have won, though it would have been extremely tenuous, it would have laid the foundation for a Federation / Klingon / Romulan Alliance of sorts if the Federation would have played their cards better; the Federation didn't necessarily need to violate their principles to do it.
  2. jimbotron

    jimbotron Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Nov 27, 2012
    Bay Area, CA
    The Romulans were not interested in peace with the Federation. They wanted a foothold in the Klingon Empire to put more pressure against the Federation. Using the Duras was a means to an end for them, and was mutually beneficial. Romulans are only interested in "peace" if it suits their needs. They would have no reason to ally with the Federation until the Dominion threat.

    Gowron didn't really do anything to suggest he was as bad as Duras. I'm not sure what you got that impression. We just heard a brief description from Worf in Reunion. By Redemption, all he had done was become Chancellor, see through the Duras sisters' ploy, and leverage Worf. His arrogance and incompetence came later in DS9.
  3. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 4, 2002
    The Romulans weren't, but the Durass were interested in 'peace' with both sides.

    I'd argue the Romulans wanting a foothold in the Klingon empire also presented an opportunity for the Federation to have a foothold in into the Romulan Empire.
  4. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 9, 2013
    If the Durass wanted peace with the federation Picard would have been in favor of them. Instead they tried to kill him and they don't seem to care about establishing peace. I'm sure Picard would have been in favor of them if them gaining power would have increased the peace.
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jun 15, 2012
    It's Duras. One s. Unless you're just insulting the man by calling him an ass at every opportunity.

    That said Picard ruled in favor of Gowron because he legally did everything right. Toral's claim to power was only slightly less absurd than the notion of Alexander walking in and claiming leadership.
  6. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Aug 18, 2007
    Romulans wanted no peace with the UFP. The UFP would've been at risk in allowing their alliance to develop as it was, because the Romulan goal was a shift in power to their advantage, over the UFP. The Durass sisters took orders from Romulans. They were Romulan pawns, not equals in a peace accord. An Empire ruled from Romulas is what Worf called it, correctly so.

    The Durass sisters were not interested in peace accords with all sides. They wanted someone to give them military aid to help them in seizing power of the Empire. The UFP would not do that, but the Romulans would, because even if it failed, there was a chance of it destabilizing the region, & creating a weakness for the Federation
  7. MikeS

    MikeS Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Sep 6, 2008
    Liverpool, UK
    I thought this thread was going to be about Worf resigning his comission and then seemingly getting it back in part two with no consequence.
  8. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 4, 2002
    Here's where the disconnect breaks down for me: a good enemy has to have a good reason for things they do.

    Looking back on the history of the Romulans, they seem to be the bad guys simply because they are the bad guys. Star Trek firmly setup they are treacherous, but not exactly why.

    I'd argue the Durass Sisters weren't pawns, but rather power hungry. They wanted power and would use the Federation OR the Romulan Empire equally to maintain said power.

    In the case of the Federation, this actually gave raise to allow for a Klingon led diplomatic camp (albeit, a half hearted one) with the Federation to Romulanus.

    The key to making sense of all this, for me, is what motivate(d)(s) the Romulans?
    - Did they want power?
    - Do they hate the Federation so?
    - Do they want to control so they can isolate (like the Founders) ?
    - Do they simply want to rule?
    - Do they want to bolster they're military position?

    For me, unless you can bring about a logical reason why the Romulans want to drive a wedge between any thing that leads to potential peace talks in the long run, this whole incident actually provided one heck of an oppourtunity for the Federation to pursue peace through the initial duplicitous acts of the Durass Sisters.
  9. Captain Jed R.

    Captain Jed R. Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Mar 28, 2008
    Lala Land.
    Romulans seem to want to be the dominant military/imperial power in the region. Anything they do is an attempt to either maintain the balance of power to keep themselves "in the game", or destabilise the balance of power to make themselves top dog. I think the notion of peace with the Federation - without Romulus being in charge - would probably not appeal, and I'm fairly certain there's a sort of hatred of the Federation dating back to the Earth-Romulus war.
  10. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 11, 2006
    Moncton, NB
    Exactly, the Romulans are the Feds' oldest enemies. They've been enemies since before there ever was a Federation. There's simply too much bad history between them for there to be an easy peace.
  11. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

    Jun 19, 2013
    Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
    Whether or not UFP might benefit from an alliance with the Romulans, would it be to the UFP's advantage by doing so through Romulan power politics, manipulating the dynastic changes of the Klingon Empire? It would greatly problematize the Federation's politics to play this type of aristocratic game rather than established the principles upon which such an alliance would form.
  12. Mojochi

    Mojochi Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Aug 18, 2007
    They fear the UFP, because it is a democratic state. They are an empire/regime, to which democracy is a threat, as it could spread to them. That's how I always took it. The Duras sisters were their pawns. The Romulans called every shot in that coup. They ordered the sisters at every step, & abandoned them when they were exposed, & that is when the coup faltered
  13. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

    Jun 9, 2013
    The Captain's Table
    Incorrect. The Duras were interested only in an alliance with the Romulans. They had no interest whatsoever in peace with the Federation, something that they told Picard themselves if he tried to interfere with their ousting of Gowron.

    True. But what does that have to do with the Duras?

    They weren't being honest with Picard. Every time a member of the Duras family appears in Star Trek, he or she is trying to do something that harms either the Federation or its allies.

  14. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 20, 2012
    The Romulans wanted to make the Klingon Empire into a puppet state of the Romulan Empire. The Romulans are conquerers, they just prefer conquering through political manipulation to conquering through open warfare. The Duras sisters were perfectly happy with letting the Romulans politically conquer them so they could be the head puppets.


    The Romulans didn't fear the Federation because they were a 'Democratic state', they feared them because they were as powerful as them and the biggest impediment to expanding their empire.