Disco characters...

[eschaton]

Sure, but he was still the main character when for instance he left the station (for an unspecified period of time) that caused dismay and even distress among the rest of the crew. His baseball is an important plot point during the time Dukat occupies his office and Dukat hand it out to him as a symbol of surrender.

I think I'd say that Sisko was the protagonist for DS9 (the story is intimately wound into his personal arc from start to finish) but he's arguably not the main character, because the story isn't mostly doesn't follow him (of course, that means no one would be the main character, because it's a true ensemble). I'm sure he gets a plurality of lines over the course of the series, but his overall percentage was undoubtedly lower than any other captain. I actually saw a fan attempt to quantify it with python going through the script, and Sisko's line count was only #1 in 50 out of 176 episodes.

 

[Discofan]

I think I'd say that Sisko was the protagonist for DS9 (the story is intimately wound into his personal arc from start to finish) but he's arguably not the main character, because the story isn't mostly doesn't follow him (of course, that means no one would be the main character, because it's a true ensemble). I'm sure he gets a plurality of lines over the course of the series, but his overall percentage was undoubtedly lower than any other captain. I actually saw a fan attempt to quantify it with python going through the script, and Sisko's line count was only #1 in 50 out of 176 episodes.

Are you saying that he's not the one who got the most lines throughout the series? If that's the case then, who is?

 

[Rahul]

I think I'd say that Sisko was the protagonist for DS9 (the story is intimately wound into his personal arc from start to finish) but he's arguably not the main character, because the story isn't mostly doesn't follow him (of course, that means no one would be the main character, because it's a true ensemble). I'm sure he gets a plurality of lines over the course of the series, but his overall percentage was undoubtedly lower than any other captain. I actually saw a fan attempt to quantify it with python going through the script, and Sisko's line count was only #1 in 50 out of 176 episodes.

Sisko was the clear "lead" character of an ensemble. The ensemble was important, and everyone of it had multiple relationships to everyone else of the ensemble. But it was structured around Sisko as the most important player. The same way in TOS, Kirk was the "lead" of the trifecta of main characters (everyone else - Chekhov, Sulu, Uhura,... - were just minor characters compared to the trio, plot wise).

TNG is a bit different, in season 1 Riker is the main protagonist, but only so far, and during the course of the series that shifted to Picard and Data. But TNG was probably the "purest" ensemble piece without a clear lead character so far - they could have swapped out anybody, and the ensemble would still have worked. Part of that was what made the Best-of-both-worlds cliffhanger work.

VOY struggled with that in the beginning - having Janeway leading an ensemble didn't really work out, because most of her relationships with the crew were very similar to each other - professionally and friendly - and as such not very prone for drama or interesting developments. Until later, when the Janeway-Seven relationship formed the "core" relationship of the show, with the rest of the ensemble being centered around it.

ENT on the other hand tried to ape TOS with a "new" trifecta led by Archer. One of the reasons I still mourn over the aborted season 5 of ENT was that the planned addition of Shran as a main character would have completely changed the team-dynamic, and would've made for hella' interesting storylines.

DIS has IMO right now the same problem VOY had in the beginning - all relationships are centered around Burnham. And they're all the same. This time it's "mistrust mixed with aknowledgment for her capabilities" - but there's just no variety in there. That makes for a boring dynamic if all characters relate to her in the same fashion. But season 2 has the chance to radically improve upon that, with now an already "formed" team (with Saru, Stamets and Tilly), as well as an expected addition of completely new characters (the new Captain) with new relationship dynamics.

 

[eschaton]

Are you saying that he's not the one who got the most lines throughout the series? If that's the case then, who is?

No, as I said, Sisko had a clear plurality of lines across the series. But I'm sure his overall percentage was the lowest of any captain (barring Lorca). And that's not just because DS9 had the largest main cast and a large array of "fake guest stars" like Garak, Morn, Nog, Martok, etc.

As I said, Sisko was the series protagonist - the series was about him fundamentally, whereas TOS isn't about Kirk, TNG isn't about Picard, VOY isn't about Janeway, etc. That said, on a week-to-week basis he could often be all but absent.

Sisko was the clear "lead" character of an ensemble. The ensemble was important, and everyone of it had multiple relationships to everyone else of the ensemble. But it was structured around Sisko as the most important player. The same way in TOS, Kirk was the "lead" of the trifecta of main characters (everyone else - Chekhov, Sulu, Uhura,... - were just minor characters compared to the trio, plot wise).

I'm not sure I agree about TOS, it was a very different format. Back in 2004, someone on this forum apparently did a word count across all of Trek to that date. It's not perfect for our purposes, because he lumped together all Trek up to that point together, rather than breaking out by series. Moves are also included, but that's not important.

Regardless, adding together the main cast of each series, here are the percentage of words across all scripts for each captain:

Kirk: 45.5%
Picard: 30.1%
Sisko: 19.6%
Janeway: 25.3%
Archer: 35.3%

Picard and Sisko are slightly underestimated, because Worf's total word count is being counted towards each series, which of course isn't right. On the other hand I didn't include the recurring non-main characters, even though certain ones like Garak had more scripted dialogue than main characters (including Jake Sisko on DS9). If you included all the semi-regulars, Sisko's total would have fallen even more.

Regardless, DS9 and TOS were opposite ends of the Trek spectrum, with TOS the most "captain-focused" show, and DS9 the least.

DIS has IMO right now the same problem VOY had in the beginning - all relationships are centered around Burnham. And they're all the same. This time it's "mistrust mixed with aknowledgment for her capabilities" - but there's just no variety in there. That makes for a boring dynamic if all characters relate to her in the same fashion. But season 2 has the chance to radically improve upon that, with now an already "formed" team (with Saru, Stamets and Tilly), as well as an expected addition of completely new characters (the new Captain) with new relationship dynamics.

I have my issues with DIS, but this isn't one of them. I thought the main characters treated her quite differently. Tilly warmed up to her pretty fast and they became besties. Lorca showed faith in her from the beginning. Ash was...ugh...but it was different. Stamets and Saru were most similar in their initial response to her, but even this dynamic changed over time. Although honestly, I can't even think of any interactions Stamets had with Burnham in the back half of the series at all.

 

[Rahul]

No, as I said, Sisko had a clear plurality of lines across the series. But I'm sure his overall percentage was the lowest of any captain (barring Lorca). And that's not just because DS9 had the largest main cast and a large array of "fake guest stars" like Garak, Morn, Nog, Martok, etc.

As I said, Sisko was the series protagonist - the series was about him fundamentally, whereas TOS isn't about Kirk, TNG isn't about Picard, VOY isn't about Janeway, etc. That said, on a week-to-week basis he could often be all but absent.



I'm not sure I agree about TOS, it was a very different format. Back in 2004, someone on this forum apparently did a word count across all of Trek to that date. It's not perfect for our purposes, because he lumped together all Trek up to that point together, rather than breaking out by series. Moves are also included, but that's not important.

Regardless, adding together the main cast of each series, here are the percentage of words across all scripts for each captain:

Kirk: 45.5%
Picard: 30.1%
Sisko: 19.6%
Janeway: 25.3%
Archer: 35.3%

Picard and Sisko are slightly underestimated, because Worf's total word count is being counted towards each series, which of course isn't right. On the other hand I didn't include the recurring non-main characters, even though certain ones like Garak had more scripted dialogue than main characters (including Jake Sisko on DS9). If you included all the semi-regulars, Sisko's total would have fallen even more.

Regardless, DS9 and TOS were opposite ends of the Trek spectrum, with TOS the most "captain-focused" show, and DS9 the least.



I have my issues with DIS, but this isn't one of them. I thought the main characters treated her quite differently. Tilly warmed up to her pretty fast and they became besties. Lorca showed faith in her from the beginning. Ash was...ugh...but it was different. Stamets and Saru were most similar in their initial response to her, but even this dynamic changed over time. Although honestly, I can't even think of any interactions Stamets had with Burnham in the back half of the series at all.

As I said: Kirk is the leading character of a trifecta. OTOH Sisko is the leading character of an ensemble. DS9 has a much larger cast of "core" characters and gives them all a lot of screentime. TOS has just three main characters. Of course that means Kirk's share is bigger than Sisko's.

But still - in TOS Kirk is not "the" leading man with a few sidekicks. He's still "just" the leading man of a (much smaller) ensemble. Spock and McCoy are "real" characters in their own right, just that the focus of the show is more often directly on Kirk. It's the difference between Magnum being the clear main character of his show with a bunch of sidekicks (the show wouldn't work without him), and McGarret "leading an ensemble" in Hawaii Five-O (He's at the center, and removing him would need serious work and restructuring of the show - but it's possible).

 

[catshadowsi8]

Of course, my understanding is most, if not all, later-day Trek characters were essentially created via committee based upon presumptions of what the fans want (modified as needed to account for actors), so it's not like this level of cynicism is new to Trek.

Imo the whole idea of taking a pole, check the boxes is horrible writing and leads to polarizing episodes like Endgame in Voyager. (The Borg...check, time travel...check, romance....check) Yuck! Still we all know it happens. It's just unfortunate.

 

[eschaton]

As I said: Kirk is the leading character of a trifecta. OTOH Sisko is the leading character of an ensemble. DS9 has a much larger cast of "core" characters and gives them all a lot of screentime. TOS has just three main characters. Of course that means Kirk's share is bigger than Sisko's.

But still - in TOS Kirk is not "the" leading man with a few sidekicks. He's still "just" the leading man of a (much smaller) ensemble. Spock and McCoy are "real" characters in their own right, just that the focus of the show is more often directly on Kirk. It's the difference between Magnum being the clear main character of his show with a bunch of sidekicks (the show wouldn't work without him), and McGarret "leading an ensemble" in Hawaii Five-O (He's at the center, and removing him would need serious work and restructuring of the show - but it's possible).

Putting aside line or word count, let's look at themes. TOS is often about Kirk. If there is a romance of the week, 95% of the time it's Kirk's. If there's some character-related backstory, 90% of the time it's Kirk's. Spock gets a few episodes over the course of the three seaons (The Galileo Seven, This Side of Paradise, Amok Time, arguably Journey to Babel, The Enterprise Incident, and All Our Yesterdays). McCoy's only "episode" was For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky, where he finally gets to have a romantic interest. Despite being clearly the #3 man on the show, the narrative focus was on him as little of the time as Scotty (who was used as a plot device in Wolf In the Fold) or Chekov (who got a completely out-of character B-plot in the horrendous Way to Eden).

It does bear mentioning that in the first half of Season 1, before Gene Coon came on, TOS hadn't settled on a format. In some episodes, like Charlie X, it presented a proto-ensemble show. In other episodes, like Dagger of The Mind, it's presented as "The adventures of Captain Kirk." It wasn't until the back end of that season that they figured out that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy should all beam down to a planet together to have an adventure.

 

[catshadowsi8]

That last point is very astute...given the entire Shezhou crew is on the DSC anyway, they should have spread the points...have one be the mutineer, one the Vulcan, have them all be after that redemption for the start of the war, even if only one of their number was in the brig for it. Much more interesting, much more for all the characters, and stories about that one thing that basically write themselves.

This is a very interesting point. I feel Burnham wears too many hats and doesn't master any of them well. One episode she is a mutineer, the next she is Sarek's protege betrayed in favor of his son, then she is an orphan whose parents were killed by Klingons, the list goes on and on. It's too much. I simply start rolling my eyes after a while. Protagonist is one thing but making her everything is exhausting.

 

[jaime]

I'm still not sure you can argue that Sisko's role on DS9 was the same as the captains on the other shows. I mean, it's weird, because in one sense his personal arc was integral to the show as a whole. On the other hand it seemed like over half of the episodes each season were led by other characters. Sometimes he just had a little three-minute scene at the opening and closing in his office, and was otherwise totally ignored.

I would strongly argue Picard and Janeway aren’t one hundred percent leads in the way only Kirk and Burnham are.

 

[eschaton]

I would strongly argue Picard and Janeway aren’t one hundred percent leads in the way only Kirk and Burnham are.

I was honestly surprised that Picard's word count proportion was a bit higher than Janeway, because I didn't perceive their roles on the shows as that different. Maybe it's just that Patrick Stewart was so much better at monologue they gave him longer lines?

Still, I generally agree.

 

[Discofan]

I was honestly surprised that Picard's word count proportion was a bit higher than Janeway, because I didn't perceive their roles on the shows as that different. Maybe it's just that Patrick Stewart was so much better at monologue they gave him longer lines?

Still, I generally agree.

Picard did have a knack for making long speeches. Riker even said something to that effect in one of the episodes, one where Picard was missing, something to the effect of: "I am sure that Captain Picard would have something inspiring to say about this..."

 

[Refuge]

I was honestly surprised that Picard's word count proportion was a bit higher than Janeway, because I didn't perceive their roles on the shows as that different. Maybe it's just that Patrick Stewart was so much better at monologue they gave him longer lines?

Still, I generally agree.

Maybe Janeway had more impact and that is why her presence parallels Picard's even though his word count was higher. Though I think Picard tended to be more wordy by nature of the character. More 'flowery'.

 

[gblews]

DIS has IMO right now the same problem VOY had in the beginning - all relationships are centered around Burnham. And they're all the same. This time it's "mistrust mixed with aknowledgment for her capabilities" - but there's just no variety in there. That makes for a boring dynamic if all characters relate to her in the same fashion.

I don't think all of the crew related to Burnham in the same way. Initially, Lorca sees her as a useful tool in his war effort. Lorca doesn't doesn't trust anyone. We later find out that he does like Burnham, but for for "other" reasons.

Tilly is initially likes Burnham but is put off by her reputation as a mutineer. She doesn't dislike or mistrust Burnham. Tilly's feelings quickly evolve into respect, affection.

Stammets doesn't like Burnham and doesn't trust her initially. His feelings evolve into respect and a certain amount of trust.

Tyler takes a liking to Burnham immediately and that evolves into love.

Saru definitley does not like or trust Burnham upon her arrival on Discovery. His feelings evolve into respect and affection.

Landry doesn't trust anything about Burnham, but she was a security officer and Burnham was a prisoner on the Disco.

Detmer obviously doesn't like Burnham and we never see any definitive on screen evidence that her feelings change.

But season 2 has the chance to radically improve upon that, with now an already "formed" team (with Saru, Stamets and Tilly), as well as an expected addition of completely new characters (the new Captain) with new relationship dynamics.

Although I don't agree that the way the characters related to Burnham necessarily needs improvement, with additional seasons there are definitely opportunities for improvement in many areas.

 

[Discofan]

Disco is sort of like Voyager from Paris' point of view.

 

[Rahul]

Detmer obviously doesn't like Burnham and we never see any definitive on screen evidence that her feelings change.

See? We actually don't know this. There was this one (brilliant) scene where they look at each other in the cantina, where Detmer is shocked. And then....nothing. They NEVER talk to each other! During the entire season! Detmer only ever delivers typical bridge dialogue.
Does she like Burnham? Hate her? Well, they hang out next to each other during the party. And Detmer is the first one to make a step towards Burnham's klingon spy boyfriend after his situation has been revealed.
But how do they stand towards each other? We just don't know. That she "doesn't like" her is your personal interpretation. There is nothing in the series to support or disprove this.
It's a massive oversight. One one of the more obvious sign that the wirters were more pre-occupied to come up with shocking plot twists, than actually develop their characters and relationships in a serious way.

 

[eschaton]

And Detmer is the first one to make a step towards Burnham's klingon spy boyfriend after his situation has been revealed.

My headcanon is that Detmer just wanted to bone him all along, and now she saw her chance.

The show's treatment of Detmer is really indicative of how it appears that the showrunners weren't doing their job however, and the different parts of the show had very different ideas about her character. I mean, the makeup designers spent a good deal of time with her look - far more than a glorified extra requires. And the directors chose to put in a comparably large amount of "reaction shots" - closeups of her face and the like. Yet the writers didn't give her any lines worth mentioning (unless you consider MU Detmer, who got more lines in one episode than Detmer got in the rest of the series - albeit nothing worth remembering). Thus the show treated her visually like she was a character, but treated her scriptwise as being an interchangable extra.

 

[Rahul]

My headcanon is that Detmer just wanted to bone him all along, and now she saw her chance.

The show's treatment of Detmer is really indicative of how it appears that the showrunners weren't doing their job however, and the different parts of the show had very different ideas about her character. I mean, the makeup designers spent a good deal of time with her look - far more than a glorified extra requires. And the directors chose to put in a comparably large amount of "reaction shots" - closeups of her face and the like. Yet the writers didn't give her any lines worth mentioning (unless you consider MU Detmer, who got more lines in one episode than Detmer got in the rest of the series - albeit nothing worth remembering). Thus the show treated her visually like she was a character, but treated her scriptwise as being an interchangable extra.

A major problem is that the show decided for a "lower decks" approach - e.g. the main characters (Burnham, Stamets, Tilly) all worked in engineering. But then the show decided to do the traditional bridge battle scenes anyway - Leading to the curious situation of seeing a space battle on the bridge - yet Lorca (who was the mystery character at that point) was the only named character on bridge. It amounted to a number of extras ("Detmer" - her name comes from additional material, the droid, the asian guy) all shouting the usual dialoge "shield at xx percent", "klingons approaching on starboard", "Fire at will" - Yet there was absolutely no connection to any of these characters, they never had a dialogue scene before, and we didn't knew anything about them. Would have been seriously interesting to see a battle scene from the perspective of someone on engineering - like Burnham - who has absolutely no control over the situation and only hears what happens, to live or die by the hands of her superiours. The show didn't gave us that though. Sadly. Now with Burnham being a "regular" bridge character that chance has passed...

 

[gblews]

See? We actually don't know this. There was this one (brilliant) scene where they look at each other in the cantina, where Detmer is shocked. And then....nothing. They NEVER talk to each other! During the entire season! Detmer only ever delivers typical bridge dialogue.
Does she like Burnham? Hate her? Well, they hang out next to each other during the party. And Detmer is the first one to make a step towards Burnham's klingon spy boyfriend after his situation has been revealed.
But how do they stand towards each other? We just don't know. That she "doesn't like" her is your personal interpretation. There is nothing in the series to support or disprove this.
It's a massive oversight. One one of the more obvious sign that the wirters were more pre-occupied to come up with shocking plot twists, than actually develop their characters and relationships in a serious way.

Soooo, we've moved on from your incorrect (IMO), assertion that all of the characters relate to Burnham the same way? My point in mentioning Burnham's relationship with Detmer was in support of my opposition to your assertion.

Oh well, gotta be agile in this forum.

Yes, I'de like to know if Detmer's feelings about Burnham have changed, as well. If the the show had been cancelled, not clearing up this little detail would have been an, I don't know, massive oversight. So, good thing there is an additional season which will offer the producers the opportunity to further develop character relationships, among other things.

BTW, in that scene in the mess hall, yes, Detmer does initially have a look of shock on her face upon seeing Burnham, but when Burnham trys to speak to her, Detmer turns without a word and walks away. That represents "anger". This is the reason we know Detmer is angry and doesn't like Burnham.

 

[Rahul]

Soooo, we've moved on from your incorrect (IMO), assertion that all of the characters relate to Burnham the same way? My point in mentioning Burnham's relationship with Detmer was in support of my opposition to your assertion.

Oh well, gotta be agile in this forum.

Yes, I'de like to know if Detmer's feelings about Burnham have changed, as well. If the the show had been cancelled, not clearing up this little detail would have been an, I don't know, massive oversight. So, good thing there is an additional season which will offer the producers the opportunity to further develop character relationships, among other things.

BTW, in that scene in the mess hall, yes, Detmer does initially have a look of shock on her face upon seeing Burnham, but when Burnham trys to speak to her, Detmer turns without a word and walks away. That represents "anger". This is the reason we know Detmer is angry and doesn't like Burnham.

You really didn't get it, did you?
All CHARACTERS have the same relationship to Burnham - initial mistrust, grudgingly learning respect for her abilities, and in the end for her herself.
Then you gave the example of "Detmer". Sadly, she isn't a "character" on the show, she's a thinly veiled extra without personality or on-screen history or story. Literally everybody that has any meaningful dialogue on the show beyond background status reports during bridge scenes has the exact same relationship to Burnham. You cited a relationship that simply doesn't exist on the show (Burnhams relationship to Detmer) as a counter-example. There exists only this ONE(!) scene with her where they interact. Everything else (them hanging out at the party, Detmer being friendly to Tyler after the Tyler reveal and Burnham-Tyler relationship has ben made open) indicate a change. But it simply was not shown. They could have had the same development the Burnham-Saru relationship had - he was shocked first seeing her on this ship as well. We don't know. The "relationship" between the two that you cited which can't be in the same molds as other relationships - because you made it simply up in your head, it doesn't really exists on the show in the first place.

 

[lawman]

I'm still not sure you can argue that Sisko's role on DS9 was the same as the captains on the other shows. I mean, it's weird, because in one sense his personal arc was integral to the show as a whole. On the other hand it seemed like over half of the episodes each season were led by other characters...

DS9 was IMHO the only Trek show that ever pulled off a good ensemble, and that's one of the things I like about it. I wouldn't even agree that Sisko's personal arc was "integral"... his arc was ultimately all about the Prophets, and to my mind that was hands-down the most tedious and pointless major storyline on the show.

TNG is a bit different, in season 1 Riker is the main protagonist, but only so far, and during the course of the series that shifted to Picard and Data. But TNG was probably the "purest" ensemble piece without a clear lead character so far - they could have swapped out anybody, and the ensemble would still have worked. Part of that was what made the Best-of-both-worlds cliffhanger work.

You really think so? I would argue that Picard and Data (or more precisely, the actors who played them) were the only things that made the show work. Get rid of them, and TNG would have been a hollow shell of itself. (Riker in particular I always found to be intolerably annoying. But then every Trek series after TOS seems to have at least one character like that...)

The show's treatment of Detmer is really indicative of how it appears that the showrunners weren't doing their job however, and the different parts of the show had very different ideas about her character. ... Thus the show treated her visually like she was a character, but treated her scriptwise as being an interchangable extra.

Add one more thing to the checklist, I guess, of evidence that DSC's writers and the people crafting its visuals were kept in separate locked rooms and prevented from ever communicating with each other...