"Disaster" and Chain of Command
- Thread starter CoveTom
- Start date
Troi may outrank Data, and maybe in sickbay, or a situation where her skills are needed - negotiating a hostage situation, for example - she can order him around. His position as 2nd officer out ranks her position as ships counselor. Had he been on the bridge in Disaster, he would have been in command no questions asked. Had she been a full commander by the time of Disaster, his position still would have put him in command. Troi could have held the rank of captain, and Data would still have out ranked her in Disaster.
As I understand it, you have rank and position. An officer with a lower rank can be in command even if a higher ranking officer is on the bridge because his position as 1st, 2nd or 3rd Officer is higher than anyone else.
In The Doomsday Machine, Spock followed the book to the letter, and let a Commodore who outranked him (by 2 or was it 3 ranks?) take command by citing Starfleet Order 104:
There was no flag officer on the bridge in Disaster to take command, so S.O. 104 did not apply. So again, had Data been on the Bridge, he would have out ranked Troi even if had already been a full commander, or Crusher who was a full commander.
It all comes down to your Position. S.O. 104 would allow a Lieutenant Commander to stay as a ship's captain even if an admiral is aboard. So long as the Commander is assigned as captain or the admiral has no orders from Starfleet assigning him as captain (the commanding officer).
Did I make sense?
In certain situations, no distinction is made between an officer's "corps" when it comes to chain of command. In a situation like "Disaster," it is most appropriate that Troi would be placed in command because of her rank. If another officer of equal rank were on the bridge at the time, then they would, depending on their specialty, probably assumed command. This causes a lot of confusion in the military today and is difficult for many medical and scientific officers because they are often given very little "leadership" and "command" training.
AmishHacker
AmishHacker
That brings up another interesting question, regarding "The Doomsday Machine": Kirk orders Spock to take command of the ship back from Decker. Does Kirk have that authority, and should Spock have complied with that order? It's not really clear in the ep, as Spock out manuevers Decker with the claim that Decker is acting suicidal. If Decker didn't go for that, could Spock have retaken command on Kirk's order?
it causes a lot of confusion in the military today? I don't think so. There is a very clear distinction in the U.S. military between staff officers(medical, supply, chaplains, etc.) and command line officers. It makes perfect sense and is not at all confusing. Military doctors and chaplains don't go in thinking they're going to get a chance to command a ship.
Star Trek's the one that got it wrong.(or, if you want to assume that they deliberately departed from the modern military for dramatic or other purposes, and it wasn't out of lack of research, then it's not "wrong," just extremely silly).
I like Timo's theory that O'Brien was using Troi as a figurehead. He's definitely more experienced than Troi and Ro, and he should've been in command in the situation. So, in fact, he did take command by co-opting Troi's "authority". He bluffed Ro, and won. And no one even really noticed!
I would assume that while Decker did have the right to take command in the absence of the assigned commanding officer, that as soon as Kirk were back in contact, command automatically reverts to him. Surely Starfleet regulations don't allow any officer of flag rank to just arbitrarily commandeer ships as they see fit. And once Kirk was back in command, he could designate any officer he chose to be temporarily in command, as normal.
1. Star Trek is not wrong, it cannot be wrong because it's not real, everything the writer's write is automatically correct within the show.
2. Who cares if it's silly, there are a lot of things in today's military that are extremely silly, things like that happen.
What annoyed me about the situation was not that Troi was in command, it was that she was portrayed as a doofus. It would have been easy to establish that every officer, command track or not, has basic knowledge necessary to command a ship. She wouldn't have been an expert, she would have been insecure but she would have been more believable.
What annoyed me even more than that was that engineering was completely empty ... what was that about, did the entire engineering staff just leave? It made no sense, is it standard procedure to abandon crucial parts of the ship if the lights go out? Even if most of them were crawling through Jeffries tubes, wouldn't at least one stay in engineering in case the displays suddenly start working again, showing for example that the friggin warp core is going to blow up unless you press the magical "reroute energy and restore" button?
That's what doesn't make sense, not the chain of command stuff (ok, that didn't make much sense either, but I can ignore it).
I think there was some vagueness to SO 104 that Spock interpreted it the same was as Decker.
I think those two highlighted areas are vague enough for Spock to logically see Decker's interpretation as correct.
There are a lot of interesting questions about rank in Trek.
Like whether a red shirt (command division) has priority over someone else with the same rank.
Shelby was the same rank as Data, yet she used her "own" authority to beam down with Data.
In fact she was seen as giving Data orders even though Data was the second officer on the ship. Shelby was a red shirt.
In Gambit, Worf gets to act as second officer, even though Geordi outranked him.
Geordi was put in charge over chief engineer Logan.
In TOS, an ensign was given command of the bridge even though Uhura, (a Lt senior grade?) outranked him.
If Data is the second officer, then theoretically he gives the orders in absence of Riker or Picard, yet Crusher and Troi are his superior officers. Troi gets command in the presence of Data.
There seems to be three different aspects to this - rank, position and division- and they all clash like hell at times.
Like whether a red shirt (command division) has priority over someone else with the same rank.
Shelby was the same rank as Data, yet she used her "own" authority to beam down with Data.
In fact she was seen as giving Data orders even though Data was the second officer on the ship. Shelby was a red shirt.
In Gambit, Worf gets to act as second officer, even though Geordi outranked him.
Geordi was put in charge over chief engineer Logan.
In TOS, an ensign was given command of the bridge even though Uhura, (a Lt senior grade?) outranked him.
If Data is the second officer, then theoretically he gives the orders in absence of Riker or Picard, yet Crusher and Troi are his superior officers. Troi gets command in the presence of Data.
There seems to be three different aspects to this - rank, position and division- and they all clash like hell at times.
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True, but that was in a somewhat serious situation if I recall correctly. It seemed like a more experienced officer would be used.
An Ensign is the most junior level officer, a Lt senior grade is two steps above.
Uhura once filled in on the com, showing that officers in general were trained for multitasks, so with Uhura being on the bridge all the time, theoretically, shouldn't she have been given command?
It suggested a glass ceiling for women, particularly communications officers.
An Ensign is the most junior level officer, a Lt senior grade is two steps above.
Uhura once filled in on the com, showing that officers in general were trained for multitasks, so with Uhura being on the bridge all the time, theoretically, shouldn't she have been given command?
It suggested a glass ceiling for women, particularly communications officers.
Where and how is Troi being portrayed as a doofus?
She had an agenda of her own, somewhat contrary to Ro's: total crew safety first, even when the risk for total loss is great and saving some while letting others die sounds like a good idea. O'Brien appeared to share that agenda, and thus backed up Troi. Overall, Troi acted responsibly: she let the experts handle the technical aspects and propose strategies by which to attain Troi's own stated goals. She rewarded people for right choices and punished them for wrong ones, with all the subtlety a psychologist can muster.
And no, she never asked "What is a core breach?". She interrupted a technical description with a reasonable question, to which Ro gave a flippant answer. Wisely, Troi didn't get bogged down with status-lowering mumbling such as "Yes, I know that, I only wanted to know how long the field decay will take and how it can be reversed."
Timo Saloniemi
She had an agenda of her own, somewhat contrary to Ro's: total crew safety first, even when the risk for total loss is great and saving some while letting others die sounds like a good idea. O'Brien appeared to share that agenda, and thus backed up Troi. Overall, Troi acted responsibly: she let the experts handle the technical aspects and propose strategies by which to attain Troi's own stated goals. She rewarded people for right choices and punished them for wrong ones, with all the subtlety a psychologist can muster.
And no, she never asked "What is a core breach?". She interrupted a technical description with a reasonable question, to which Ro gave a flippant answer. Wisely, Troi didn't get bogged down with status-lowering mumbling such as "Yes, I know that, I only wanted to know how long the field decay will take and how it can be reversed."
Timo Saloniemi
Unless I've forgotten something, I don't believe Starfleet Order 104 was ever quoted on screen as you've listed. So I must assume that you're quoting from a source such as a reference book or Memory Beta. Which, at the risk of starting another mess, means it is non-canon.
The only thing we know is that Decker says he has a right under regulations as a Starfleet Commodore to assume command. But we don't know, first off, if he's correct. And if he is, we don't know if he would normally have that right or if he has gained that right by virtue of the unique circumstance.
I think it makes sense that the flag officer could take command in just the way depicted. If Constellation was undamaged and fully manned, would it not make sense for the flag officer present to coordinate the two ships' actions, so they're not each fighting their own battle and possibly interfering with each other?
Now in this case his command is gone but the flag officer has survived; he still has the same experience and authority level, why wouldn't the same rules apply? He was made a commodore for a reason, he didn't just win it in a lottery. If Starfleet is making flag officers who can't be trusted with higher command in dicey situations, they've got some pretty big fundamental problems.
OTOH, LCdr Data, in gold, took command of Sutherland and gave orders to a red-shirt LCdr. So it's hard to say the shirt colors are definitive, they seem to be somewhat fluid. Perhaps Shelby was just a more senior lieutenant commander?
Agreed, nobody can say for certain the text of the reulation in question.
I'd say the fact that Spock obeys his orders is a pretty strong indication that Decker is correct.
Justin
That's what I generally think, but it can get muddled at times.
I always thought Data's position as second officer puts him just behind Riker, and that overides any seniority from someone with the same rank.
Obrien is a not an officer, but yet is chief engineer on DS9. Does that mean if an engineer who is a Lt serves on DS9 he has to answer to Obrien?
Geordi who was a red shirt Lt J.G (command division) was given command over Logan, a Lt S.G (engineering).
Does position trumps rank, Division trumps position, and Division trumps rank?
The answers to those questions comes down to the captain's word being law.
Shelby ordering Data to join him is a bit dubious to say the least and Riker called her on it. She could have easily just implied to Data Riker was alright with it. It would seem her style.
Data was in command of the Sutherland over Lietuenant Commander Whineass because Picard put him there.
Data is the Second Officer, 3rd in command on the ship, because Picard put him there.
O'brien is in charge of engineering because Sisko put him there. He is seen commanding officers on a number of occassions. He has the experience that rank doesn't mean much to him.
Geordi was in charge over that engineer of the week that outranked him because Picard put him there.
So in essence on the starship, the captain can play the "Hand of God"
I really like Timo's suggestion that O'Brien and Troi played a volatile Ro. It had to have been a complete team effort, though... Troi, being empathic, would have caught on to O'Brien's ruse immediately.
It never made sense to me that Troi should legitimately get command in that situation. For a number of reasons, not the least of which her complete and utter inadequacy to the role.
Timo's new interpretation seriously transforms my perception of those scenes. Normally I find Troi intolerable, but given this new information I actually feel like re-watching Disaster (one of my least favourite episodes).
All these years I'd been watching her in those scenes and perceiving her as a derpy commander, and it drove me nuts, much like it annoyed Ro. But if I get to watch her instead as a competent (read: manipulative) psychologist, tricking Ro with O'Brien's help, that makes it suddenly entertaining and more believable.
What would have really sealed the deal for me, though, would be a scene at the end in which Riker points out to Ro that command technically fell to her, Ro would glare at O'Brien who has just boarded the turbolift (beating a hasty retreat), with Ro exclaiming "What?" just as the turbolift doors close to carry O'Brien away. It would have fit, and made a good lead-in to the cutesy final scene where the little girl velcros her stuffed toy onto Picard's back.
It never made sense to me that Troi should legitimately get command in that situation. For a number of reasons, not the least of which her complete and utter inadequacy to the role.
Timo's new interpretation seriously transforms my perception of those scenes. Normally I find Troi intolerable, but given this new information I actually feel like re-watching Disaster (one of my least favourite episodes).
All these years I'd been watching her in those scenes and perceiving her as a derpy commander, and it drove me nuts, much like it annoyed Ro. But if I get to watch her instead as a competent (read: manipulative) psychologist, tricking Ro with O'Brien's help, that makes it suddenly entertaining and more believable.
What would have really sealed the deal for me, though, would be a scene at the end in which Riker points out to Ro that command technically fell to her, Ro would glare at O'Brien who has just boarded the turbolift (beating a hasty retreat), with Ro exclaiming "What?" just as the turbolift doors close to carry O'Brien away. It would have fit, and made a good lead-in to the cutesy final scene where the little girl velcros her stuffed toy onto Picard's back.
Then technically Troi should have been given command many times since the show started.
But usually it went to Laforge, Worf, etc.
She outranked the Lt that got killed who was in command. Ro was the next officer after her, so by that thinking it would have to go to Ro.
It's funny but in the first episode, Troi was treated like she technologically competent and was on the consoles most of the time. She was also leading away teams and was obviously in command.
But usually it went to Laforge, Worf, etc.
She outranked the Lt that got killed who was in command. Ro was the next officer after her, so by that thinking it would have to go to Ro.
It's funny but in the first episode, Troi was treated like she technologically competent and was on the consoles most of the time. She was also leading away teams and was obviously in command.
