Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

[JirinPanthosa]

Accepting the reality that the producers want to make money does not mean you have to like it.

Also if their goal was to increase ratings and make more money, they didn't do such a great job with that. Adding Seven was clearly a good business decision, as it briefly increased their ratings. But Voyager's constant focus on short term ratings grabbing over quality writing and long term fan loyalty was clearly a poor business decision.

Lien, well, her gimmick was the least 'Sexy' out of all the characters gimmicks, so it was probably the short term 'Safe' decision, the statistical best bet.

And with Fury, I'm pretty sure Berman actually thought the fans would enjoy that. Just like how he said with Enterprise's borg episode how fans would be pleased with the 'Continuity'.

Voyager is one of those shows that proves when you choose ratings over fan loyalty you end up with neither.

 

[teya]

To be fair it was me that leaped from lynx's mention of WWII to the holocaust. While it's a natural leap to make I was deliberately hyperbolizing his hyperbole. But I would not want Lien = Holcaust to enter into the board's memory and get regurgitated for the next five years as a lynx thing because that's not strictly accurate.

He did make the connection first, you just named the Holocaust.

But even just using WWII as the reference, I still fail to see how an actress losing her cushy $20K a week job is comparable to a war.

Call me stupid, but I really don't get it.

 

[teya]

Also if their goal was to increase ratings and make more money, they didn't do such a great job with that. Adding Seven was clearly a good business decision, as it briefly increased their ratings. But Voyager's constant focus on short term ratings grabbing over quality writing and long term fan loyalty was clearly a poor business decision.

I do believe that I'm not alone on this board in thinking that the stories improved when Seven came on board or that Jeri was a fine addition to the cast.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

He's not comparing Lien to WWII. He's saying that people have to speak out against injustices and listing real events where people either did or didn't speak out. He's picked really big events but he could have told some story that began "in the office last week.."

Now I agree with you that you can't compare current injustices that speaking out on will help remedy to complaining about what you perceive to be a past injustice that nothing can be done about. However I suspect he sees it as an ongoing issue, money versus people so it's not a single incident solely. He's bitching about the B's as happens here all the time, it's just he's focused on one incident and rather passionate about it. That most people don't give a fig or agree with his interpretation makes him easy to ridicule.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seven stories about the Borg and regaining her humanity were easier to tell, and easier to find.

Borg stories almost write themselves and in truth don't have to be very good.

They could write worse stories that are better received because Borg is preloved.

This was an opportunity to become very lazy.

It was too hard to write exciting Ocampa stories because no one cared, and the stories actually had to be good on their own merits and not inheriting some magical legacy secret handshake roufie to borggoggle ratbristle into mink pelt.

There was a writer, who claimed that to write a good story, you must always kill off your favourite charcater first.

No idea who the hell that was.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It was too hard to write exciting Ocampa stories because

The Ocampa were not at all exciting.

 

[teya]

He's not comparing Lien to WWII. He's saying that people have to speak out against injustices and listing real events where people either did or didn't speak out. He's picked really big events but he could have told some story that began "in the office last week.."

He should have.

I wish I could help you all out by saying what you want me to say:

That it was a terrible mistake to bring Jeri on board, that Seven was the worst character in history, that Jeri's a brain-dead bimbo without an ounce of talent in her body & that Kate & Lynx are right about her.

But I can't. I liked Voyager better after Seven came on board.

Not to worry, though. Obviously, judging from this thread & the commentary you, Lynx & others have provided, I'm in a very small minority here. That's okay.

It's just curious to me why, if Jeri is so unpopular & ruined the show, then why do so many people flock to see her at conventions? That's just something I can't understand. If adding her to the cast proves that the fans were not important, then why is she a top draw at conventions?

I really can't figure that out. According to what I read on this board, she's the most hated actor ever to grace the Trek screen.

Yet fans pay to see her.

It's really a head-scratcher for me.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Teya you obviously haven't been reading me very closely as 7 of 9 is my favorite ever Trek character and I've watched all the series many times. And Kes has always been my least favorite VOY character, I've got whole tomes of reasons why. I just don't go on about it too much these days as I enjoy all the regulars (which includes lynx) to the VOY forum and like to think this is a fun place even though we all disagree on a ton of things. I try and keep my creative vitriol to a minimum if I know someone truly loves the subject.

I'm pretty sure I've answered the subject of this thread about a thousand times with: Better, much much better.

 

[teya]

Teya you obviously haven't been reading me very closely as 7 of 9 is my favorite ever Trek character and I've watched all the series many times. And Kes has always been my least favorite VOY character, I've got whole tomes of reasons why. I just don't go on about it too much these days as I enjoy all the regulars (which includes lynx) to the VOY forum and like to think this is a fun place even though we all disagree on a ton of things. I try and keep my creative vitriol to a minimum if I know someone truly loves the subject.

Too bad he doesn't feel the same way.

It's been a few years since I've been a regular here, and all that's changed is that it's no longer cool to celebrate the character you love best for fear of insulting him.

I got better things to do online.

ETA: And I still find it disgusting to compare an actress losing her job to putting people in ovens or thermonuclear conflagrations. Perhaps you could encourage Lynx to tone down the hyperbole.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You are wrong teya. I didn't say it is no longer cool to celebrate a character I love, go and check out all the J/7 vids in the Janeway sexy thread most of which are posted by me. Post 16 in this thread is me saying I love 7 and followed by other people saying the same. I've been celebrating 7 for years. I did say that I personally (not you) don't find it cool to bash a character someone else loves. These are completely different things.

 

[teya]

I haven't bashed Kes. Ever.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Your characterization of this board being either anti-Jeri or anti-celebrating of a character because someone else didn't like them is completely off the mark.

 

[exodus]

Accepting the reality that the producers want to make money does not mean you have to like it.

Also if their goal was to increase ratings and make more money, they didn't do such a great job with that. Adding Seven was clearly a good business decision, as it briefly increased their ratings. But Voyager's constant focus on short term ratings grabbing over quality writing and long term fan loyalty was clearly a poor business decision.


Voyager is one of those shows that proves when you choose ratings over fan loyalty you end up with neither.

Please, fans think just because the show didn't pull numbers like TNG it didn't have loyal fans or wasn't a rating success. Worf was brought on DS9 to boost ratings. DS9 by fans standards had better writing than TNG, yet its ratings still weren't as high no matter how good that writing was.
If Voyager was on TV for 7 years, then it clearly had ratings to qualify it to do so. If it didn't, it would have been cancelled. Voyager was never at risk of cancellation. No show on syndicated TV before TNG ever ratings that high, this is why TNG made TV history. No Trek to date has matched it. Lots of shows on TV held the ratings Voyager did and are successful hit shows. People world wide are still watching Voyager and buying merchandise from it. It was recently voted by fans to be the number 1 Trek show they wanted to see put on Blu-ray how many years after it's been off the air? It says a huge majority are still willing to pay to own it. If that isn't long term fan loyalty, then I don't know what is. If the producers didn't do their job, then Paramount never would have asked that ENT. be put into production, they wouldn't have used it to launch the Trek Experience in Las Vegas nor would they believe there is still an audience for more Trek movies and merchandise to this day. Instead is would have gone into obscurity like B5.

All this is proven document facts if people actually took the time to do the research.

 

[exodus]

He's not comparing Lien to WWII.

Forgive me teacake but if he wasn't, then what's this?

As for dumping Kes "for the greater good", that reminds me of certain "big political bosses" who also "dumped" people "for the greater good", for the building of socialism and who knows what. Isn't it a nice society we have created?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I assumed it was Obama.

 

[exodus]

I assumed it was Obama.

Lynx isn't from or lives in the States.
This also isn't the first time he's done this.
He used to compare Berman to Hitler over firing Kes.
This is what teya is referring too.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm joking here ex.. it's all a bit nebulous but if lynx wants to come in and admit to comparing Lien being fired to the Holocaust I will take back saying that he didn't compare Lien being fired to the Holocaust.

Oh and we non-americans can also reference Obama

 

[exodus]

I'm joking here ex.. it's all a bit nebulous but if lynx wants to come in and admit to comparing Lien being fired to the Holocaust I will take back saying that he didn't compare Lien being fired to the Holocaust.

To be fair, he didn't say the Holocaust. He said, WWII

Oh and we non-americans can also reference Obama

I'm well aware but I don't believe that too be that case here.
Besides, what injustice was done here?
One actress was let go from a job.
If that's an injustice, then what's Enron?
Lien wasn't sexual harassed or discriminated against.
Had their been a true injustice, then there would have been such a thing called a "Lawsuit".
This is one more reason actors have agents, to protect their rights under contract and under the law.
I'm sorry but saying that one is fighting injustice over one actress being let out of her contract is fanatic bullshit and insulting those those that do stand up a fight against true injustices.

 

[R. Star]

*eats popcorn*

Watching people blow things out of proportion is fun. How about some Stalin comparisons to Lien's firing?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm joking here ex.. it's all a bit nebulous but if lynx wants to come in and admit to comparing Lien being fired to the Holocaust I will take back saying that he didn't compare Lien being fired to the Holocaust.

To be fair, he didn't say the Holocaust. He said, WWII

That's what I've been saying all along.

To be fair it was me that leaped from lynx's mention of WWII to the holocaust. While it's a natural leap to make I was deliberately hyperbolizing his hyperbole. But I would not want Lien = Holcaust to enter into the board's memory and get regurgitated for the next five years as a lynx thing because that's not strictly accurate.

So now we must wait to see what your lynx quote containing the words "big political bosses" and "dumping" was really all about.