Did Voyager get better or worse when Kes was replaced with 7 of 9?

[exodus]

She left Ocampa because she found the whole society boring and backwards. She stayed on Voyager because she liked it there. She had friends and could travel, explore and learn which was what she wanted. Such things happen in life.

I guess that why she was thinking about leaving Voyager twice on the journey.

They simply won't have the time to create anything. Not to mention that the Ocampa didn't show any signs of fast creating or building. They did seem rather placid.

That makes no sense.
If the Caretaker lives in space and none of them have ever seen him, who built the entire underground society they live in? Do you really think it would take an entire 9 years to build a structure? If they couldn't build anything they who built the societies the Caretaker claimed got destroyed upon his arrival?

As for the writers and their "problems " with writing for characters like Kim, Chakotay etc. They didn't kick out those characters like they did with Kes, that's the difference. If the solution was to kick out the characters they suddenly became incapable to write for, why didn't they dump everyone except Seven? Or why didn't they kick out themselves since they were incapable to do a good job? That would have been the best solution.

For the hundredth time, it's called a contract.
Something you refuse to acknowledge because it would blow all your theories out of the water. The difference is what you're asking for is irrational.
Yeah, lets make the entire cast unemployed just so we can enjoy TV.
Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?

My selfishness is sooooo sticky and callow that I want everyone not only fired but deported to some horrible place and all the money saved from not having to pay those layabouts spent on Janeway and 7's hot action chick wardrobes.

At some point I want to see 7 in one of those suede cowboy jackets with the fringes on the arms. With her hair out. On a palomino.

Also, evening ware.

 

[Lynx]

She left Ocampa because she found the whole society boring and backwards. She stayed on Voyager because she liked it there. She had friends and could travel, explore and learn which was what she wanted. Such things happen in life.

I guess that why she was thinking about leaving Voyager twice on the journey.

I can only recall that she considering leaving once, in the episode "Darkling". And she didn't!

They simply won't have the time to create anything. Not to mention that the Ocampa didn't show any signs of fast creating or building. They did seem rather placid.

That makes no sense.

If the Caretaker lives in space and none of them have ever seen him, who built the entire underground society they live in? Do you really think it would take an entire 9 years to build a structure? If they couldn't build anything they who built the societies the Caretaker claimed got destroyed upon his arrival?

Only in Braga's mind can a species with a nine year lifespan create a civilization like that. Enough said!

As for the writers and their "problems " with writing for characters like Kim, Chakotay etc. They didn't kick out those characters like they did with Kes, that's the difference. If the solution was to kick out the characters they suddenly became incapable to write for, why didn't they dump everyone except Seven? Or why didn't they kick out themselves since they were incapable to do a good job? That would have been the best solution.

For the hundredth time, it's called a contract.
Something you refuse to acknowledge because it would blow all your theories out of the water. The difference is what you're asking for is irrational.
Yeah, lets make the entire cast unemployed just so we can enjoy TV.
Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?

OK, I take it a little more detailed this time.

Not renewing the contract for one of nine actors is basically a firing, no matter what juridical words you use for it. The outcome is the same.

Yeah let's make the entire cast unemployed since the writers couldn't write for them. Or maybe it would be easier to replace the writers who obviously were incapable of doing their job.

And since the writers obviously were incapable of doing their job, why shouldn't they resign? Maybe a staff of new writers would have done a better job with all characters (if they too hadn't been ordered to be unable to write for certain characters at a certain moment).

Not only the writers need food on the table for their families. Actors need that too. Now that can be difficult if actors are fired because the writers can't do their job (or are ordered not to do their job).

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Of course somebody getting paid to write for the show would fire themselves because hey, the Star Trek fans entertainment is more important than them having food on the table for their wives and children.
Seriously, have we grown that selfish?

Not only the writers need food on the table for their families. Actors need that too. Now that can be difficult if actors are fired because the writers can't do their job (or are ordered not to do their job).

Oh heck let's just forget about television and turn Star Trek into a series of plays about our glorious comrades in space.

 

[exodus]

I can only recall that she considering leaving once, in the episode "Darkling". And she didn't!

"Coldfire" and "Darkling"
Whether she didn't or didn't actually leave is irrelevant, it's still written she had the desire to do so.

Only in Braga's mind can a species with a nine year lifespan create a civilization like that. Enough said!

Which didn't hinder the show in anyway and is a non issue to everyone but yourself.
Voyager is still being watched in reruns & still selling merchandise to this day. Sounds like Braga did a good job with the viewing audience and with his employers at Paramount. Enough said.

OK, I take it a little more detailed this time.

Not renewing the contract for one of nine actors is basically a firing, no matter what juridical words you use for it. The outcome is the same.

Yeah let's make the entire cast unemployed since the writers couldn't write for them. Or maybe it would be easier to replace the writers who obviously were incapable of doing their job.

And since the writers obviously were incapable of doing their job, why shouldn't they resign? Maybe a staff of new writers would have done a better job with all characters (if they too hadn't been ordered to be unable to write for certain characters at a certain moment).

Not only the writers need food on the table for their families. Actors need that too. Now that can be difficult if actors are fired because the writers can't do their job (or are ordered not to do their job).

Says who, a handful of fans on a message board?

If Trek fans were the only ones watching the shows, Voyager would have ended production after the first season. TNG would have NEVER been as popular or had the ground breaking ratings it did. All the die hard Trek fans globally still isn't a big enough audience to keep a show in production. There is an entire world of viewers out there who aren't represented here. There are casual viewers that watched the show as well. There is a larger majority of the audience that watched the show and didn't have any issues and have no interest in joining a fanbased message board. There is a bigger part of the audience that didn't like Kes over those that did and proved the show can run just fine without your support. J.J. Abrams proved Trek can still find a new audience and be successful without a majority of the fans support.

Too fire an entire writing staff just for the comfort of a handful of the viewing audience is irrational and unrealistic. Fans such as yourself need to wake up and realize you don't run Trek or the choices they make in production. Paramount has accounting and staff researchers that that compile data for things such as this GLOBALLY. Voyager's ratings held strong enough for it to run 7 full years which is exactly what those that created it and Paramount & their accountants hoped for. That's a successful show in the eyes of a TV studio. You don't fire a entire staff if the majority of the audience is holding strong, still tuning and and bringing in the sales you expected it too and you certainly don't based you're production on a small portion of your audience. Voyager just recently got voted #1 Trek series people wanted to see brought to Blu-Ray.(Reported on Yahoo & Facebook) Further proof that the show has a larger audience and that the majority are still willing to pay for it.

 

[R. Star]

^

Ah, yes the silent majority argument. I never found that one convincing wherever applied. Braga's turned out a lot of Trek material to be sure, but that doesn't mean we can't voice a negative opinion just because Braga's name is attached to the work somewhere. For the most part I liked his work better in TNG than in VOY and ENT.

Really what I'm reading from your post exodus is that you don't like some fan's opinions so you're trying to invalidate them? Why is that and why are you the one who gets to do it? Really I think it's the height of arrogance for anyone to tell someone else what they should think or like and dislike.

 

[exodus]

^

Ah, yes the silent majority argument. I never found that one convincing wherever applied. Braga's turned out a lot of Trek material to be sure, but that doesn't mean we can't voice a negative opinion just because Braga's name is attached to the work somewhere. For the most part I liked his work better in TNG than in VOY and ENT.

Really what I'm reading from your post exodus is that you don't like some fan's opinions so you're trying to invalidate them? Why is that and why are you the one who gets to do it? Really I think it's the height of arrogance for anyone to tell someone else what they should think or like and dislike.

You can like and dislike whatever you choose but you also can't say it isn't valid if you refuse to look at the argument from a business point of view. It's arrogant to think that you know more about what runs a TV show than those that actually worked on it and to think that we're the only ones watching the show. Do you really think all the members of this site is enough to keep a show in production?

 

[R. Star]

^

Ah, yes the silent majority argument. I never found that one convincing wherever applied. Braga's turned out a lot of Trek material to be sure, but that doesn't mean we can't voice a negative opinion just because Braga's name is attached to the work somewhere. For the most part I liked his work better in TNG than in VOY and ENT.

Really what I'm reading from your post exodus is that you don't like some fan's opinions so you're trying to invalidate them? Why is that and why are you the one who gets to do it? Really I think it's the height of arrogance for anyone to tell someone else what they should think or like and dislike.

You can like and dislike whatever you choose but you also can't say isn't valid if you refuse to look at the argument from a business point of view. It's arrogant to think that you know more about what runs a TV show than those that actually worked on it and to think that we're the only ones watching the show. Do you really think all the members of this site is enough to keep a show in production?

Obviously not, but if you alienate the core of your fanbase you can't expect to sustain a franchise either. I really always thought one of the reasons Enterprise got canceled was they couldn't even keep their own fanbase interested. In the end, they're the ones who not only watch the show, but spread the word to the casual fans, buy the products and the such. They lost me midway through season 2 when it was originally airing for example.

 

[exodus]

^

Ah, yes the silent majority argument. I never found that one convincing wherever applied. Braga's turned out a lot of Trek material to be sure, but that doesn't mean we can't voice a negative opinion just because Braga's name is attached to the work somewhere. For the most part I liked his work better in TNG than in VOY and ENT.

Really what I'm reading from your post exodus is that you don't like some fan's opinions so you're trying to invalidate them? Why is that and why are you the one who gets to do it? Really I think it's the height of arrogance for anyone to tell someone else what they should think or like and dislike.

You can like and dislike whatever you choose but you also can't say isn't valid if you refuse to look at the argument from a business point of view. It's arrogant to think that you know more about what runs a TV show than those that actually worked on it and to think that we're the only ones watching the show. Do you really think all the members of this site is enough to keep a show in production?

Obviously not, but if you alienate the core of your fanbase you can't expect to sustain a franchise either. I really always thought one of the reasons Enterprise got canceled was they couldn't even keep their own fanbase interested. In the end, they're the ones who not only watch the show, but spread the word to the casual fans, buy the products and the such. They lost me midway through season 2 when it was originally airing for example.

Trek has been around for decades, it will always find a new core audience. With every new incarnation it always does. Ent. may have lost it's audience, J.J. Abrams showed they will come back and bring in new ones. I don't think Trek fans bring in a new audience as much as good marketing does.

 

[R. Star]

Then why was Enterprise canceled again?

 

[exodus]

Then why was Enterprise canceled again?

Over saturation.
No spin off of a spin off of a spin off ever does well.
The only one to ever do that was Norman Lear.(No wait, Archie's Place was a flop)
Even Robert Patterson former actor on CSI said he hated the idea that they were doing so many spin off's of CSI because it waters down the market.
"Happy Days" had 4 spin offs, does anyone remember the one about Fonzie's guardian angel?
Law & Order had 3, CI & Trial by Jury suffered due to over saturation.
How much of a concept can you put on TV before it becomes too much? Even Berman openly has said he didn't want to put ENT. into production until 3 years after Voy. ended because he knew the audience was saying enough is enough but Paramount forced his hand because they wanted to make more money off of Trek. Berman knew and he warned them. Especially with Trek, how far can you take a concept on a TV show before you start covering the same ground again?

If studios and producers know this fact, then it's factual proof the audience can complain all we wish but in the end those behind the camera still have the final word. We don't run production, we dont run TV. They do.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Archie Bunkers Place lasted 4 years.

Happy Days Spinnoffs include Laverine and Shirely. Mork and Mindy, Joanie Loves Chachi,Out of the b;llue, blanskies beauies and two Saturday morning catoons about Fonzie.

Enterprise was geting better, but that was becuase berman wasn't allowed on set becuase he made Jolene "uncomfortable"

 

[exodus]

Enterprise was geting better, but that was becuase berman wasn't allowed on set becuase he made Jolene "uncomfortable"

It was still already too late.
Nobody was hardly watching.

Happy Days Spinnoffs include Laverine and Shirely. Mork and Mindy, Joanie Loves Chachi,Out of the b;llue, blanskies beauies and two Saturday morning catoons about Fonzie.

I'm impressed.
I've mentioned "Happy Days" here in the past and I usually get: "What's Happy Days?"
However, how successful were all those spin offs?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mork and Mindy lasted four years, but the final episode was a surprise cancellation.

As a child I did not understand how a series could be cancelled with out warning, because the cliff hanger seemed intolerable as their escape through time and space completed with their being transformed into voodoo dolls and then NOTHING.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Every time people talk about that era of shows I get this mind numbing drugged flashback of the sheer volume of television I watched as a kid. The shows were always divided into my sister's shows and my shows though we sat next to each other and watched all of it. Happy Days and Laverne and Shirley were my sister's shows, MASH was my show. Mork and Mindy was also my sister's show, I remember I had this antipathy towards the name "Mindy" which made me hand it over to her. The Prisoner was my show, I think my sister was freaked out by people being swallowed by the balls. All Saturday morning cartoons were divided up as well but my memory of those is hazy. I remember lying on the floor in front of them aware that it was brilliantly sunny outside and I was possibly missing something by not being out there. The weekends were always stressful because I hated school so much I felt I had to suck every bit of pleasure out of a weekend I could before having to face Monday.

 

[Dream]

Then why was Enterprise canceled again?

Enterprise's first two seasons stank IMO.

People were fed up with their Trek shows need three seasons to get "good". It was tolerated in TNG, but people had gotten so tried of that trend when ENT started.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I think these days even 3 episodes to "get good" is a possible death sentence.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's not the volume of programming that scares, me it's the TIME.

Monday to Friday in syndication, one episode a day, It takes a year and a half to watch all of Happy Days, or all of MASH, or all of Different Strokes, or all of Benson or all of the facts of Life, which I did, at least a dozen times before I was old enough to drink illegally.

(Well not the facts of life. That was a late edition to 80s syndication.)

A year and a half to watch all of happy days.

I have it on DVD now.

I could watch it in a week if I had something to prove.

But a year and a half?

Wow.

 

[Dream]

I think these days even 3 episodes to "get good" is a possible death sentence.

Oh, yes.

Back then networks were more willing to give low rated shows more of a chance even if their first seasons were lowly rated. It's swim or sink with shows these days. One of the reasons why I usually wait until I hear a show has gotten a second season before I start watching.

ENT didn't really have this problem. Its ratings started out very strong and just fell.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You remember Lethal Weapon 3?

before Enterprise started I dictated that I wanted to see a Romulan Ambasador with disruptor rifle in each hand blasting away at the good guys while he's screaming "DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY!"

Enterprise should have started with the Romulans attacking and the Vulcans trying to cover up that the Romulans were just more Vulcans... I read one of Christophers novels last week where he's claiming that the Vulcan previous to the K'Shara(sp?) were indifferentiable to Romulans.