I found that Archer FINALLY became interesting in Season 3! The events of Season 3 & 4 made the character lose his weaknesses and naive perspectives -- forging him into an excellent Captain.
Did the Xindi War kill the Archer character for you..
- Thread starter Tuvok
- Start date
Dark Archer was a welcome change from the first two seasons. It made sense that he would become a grimmer figure due to the danger his ship and his planet were facing. But I do think his suicidal mission in 'Azati Prime' was dumb, stubborn, selfish, and perhaps unhinged. Daniels had already proved that he was from the future and Archer should've heeded his advice about his importance instead of willfully, childishly ignoring him. He could've doomed the entire Alpha Quadrant because he didn't want anyone else to die, but millions or billions could've died if his suicide mission had been successful.
And yet, it was this suicide mission that allowed the Xindi mission as a whole to be successful. Because Archer was able to get Degra's attention, and because Degra was so appalled at Dolim's torture, Degra - the main force behind the weapon - was convinced that peace was the only answer. Had Travis or someone else been captured, that conversation would not have happened, and had they just destroyed the weapon, the Xindi would probably have just built another one.
True, but I fault bad writing for that. It was storyline dictated. It still doesn't make sense to me that Degra would believe Archer or that he would convince any of the other Council members to hold off especially after Archer was caught trying to blow them all up. Of course that's the way it had to go and the writers awkwardly got them there.
I disagree that it was bad writing. Degra was a scientist and an engineer. He would trust the science when testing the "age" of the medal that Archer showed him. And Archer left him alive after learning the location of the weapon. That was pretty decent of him, considering how many humans Degra's prototype weapon killed.
Degra was a good man. He would choose peace over genocide.
Interesting way of looking at it. That sounds reasonable, but I still think he agreed far too quickly. It would've made more sense if Archer had simply went in a shuttle without trying to blow them up, to show he was serious and honest in trying to find a peaceful solution. I just didn't buy Degra coming over to Archer's side so quickly.
One thing I hated about Archer that was really prominent in the Xindi and Season 4. Was the constant walking. When someone wanted to talk to him he just kept on walking around. That and his habit of being involved somehow in every situation pisses me off. Phlox is needed to find a cure for the Klingons. Oh shock!!! Horror!!! The constantly walking and pissed of captain is the guy who'll be injected. 
I found him boring/ok in S1/S2. S3 and S4 I couldn't stand him.
I found him boring/ok in S1/S2. S3 and S4 I couldn't stand him.
^^^One thing I hated about Archer that was really prominent in the Xindi and Season 4. Was the constant walking. When someone wanted to talk to him he just kept on walking around. That and his habit of being involved somehow in every situation pisses me off. Phlox is needed to find a cure for the Klingons. Oh shock!!! Horror!!! The constantly walking and pissed of captain is the guy who'll be injected.
I found him boring/ok in S1/S2. S3 and S4 I couldn't stand him.
You'd dislike TOS then, Kirk is (with very few exceptions over the run of the series); involved in EVERYTHING!
I thought it was a learning opportunity for Archer. He'd braced himself for "whatever it takes" and had convinced himself that the only thing to save humanity was destruction of the weapon. I also think the character had a martyr complex, that he was unhappy who he had become and what he had to do in order to save his species. Suicide may've seemed preferable. I mean, his interaction with Mayweather before he zoomed off to destroy the weapon was a huge red flag pretty much to that. Mayweather indicated it seemed like Archer was interested in penance.
I think that's why it was such a huge disappointment that the only way it was addressed was so he could get laid. Boo!
I actually thought the devolution of Archer's character was a wonderful spotlight in season 3, and possibly why it's one of my favorites. I also love just when you think Archer has nothing else to loose, he has to propel himself into the abyss -- steal a warp coil from people who need it by trickery. He's even okay if people get hurt for this cause. Oh - good stuff. Season 1 Archer would've never done anything like that.
^ This
I personally wouldn't change anything about "depressed Archer gets laid" subplot in "Home," except for maybe Ada Maris. Not that I didn't like her short portrayal of Erika Hernandez, I just wish that she had been more attractive. Its Kirk's childhood hero that we're talking about here after all.
Anyway, the preferable "coming to Jesus" talk for Archer should have involved just him, Trip and a bottle of jack.
^ This
I personally wouldn't change anything about "depressed Archer gets laid" subplot in "Home," except for maybe Ada Maris. Not that I didn't like her short portrayal of Erika Hernandez, I just wish that she had been more attractive. Its Kirk's childhood hero that we're talking about here after all.
Anyway, the preferable "coming to Jesus" talk for Archer should have involved just him, Trip and a bottle of jack.
Umm, can we confirm this was Kirk's childhood hero. I mean did any future character mention that or something.
Not sure if he would be NuKirk's hero, that's taken by Admiral Christopher Pike and for good reason.
I think he was more realistic but.....
He still didn't really have any payback character wise from the choices he made.
Damage is a good example. He attacked the friendly damaged ship and stole their Warp Coil leaving them three years from home. What happened to them ? It would of been great to have Enterprise try and find them or perhaps have them come looking for him to charge him with piracy etc.
He still didn't really have any payback character wise from the choices he made.
Damage is a good example. He attacked the friendly damaged ship and stole their Warp Coil leaving them three years from home. What happened to them ? It would of been great to have Enterprise try and find them or perhaps have them come looking for him to charge him with piracy etc.
^^^One thing I hated about Archer that was really prominent in the Xindi and Season 4. Was the constant walking. When someone wanted to talk to him he just kept on walking around. That and his habit of being involved somehow in every situation pisses me off. Phlox is needed to find a cure for the Klingons. Oh shock!!! Horror!!! The constantly walking and pissed of captain is the guy who'll be injected.
I found him boring/ok in S1/S2. S3 and S4 I couldn't stand him.
You'd dislike TOS then, Kirk is (with very few exceptions over the run of the series); involved in EVERYTHING!
Well to be honest. I was never a fan of Kirk. I have a few choice words for him but I don't want to get mobbed by his fans.
I am not a fan of Ent, but did watch the series and do occasionally watch it on SciFi when I catch it on. I have to say though I LIKED what the writers did for the character in the Xindi Arc.
He seemed more real to me and therefor more sympathetic. I actually began to forgive the earlier stuff and accept him as a man plced in an incredible, stressful situation who had to make hard choices.
So I would say the arc could only add to his character.
Vons
He seemed more real to me and therefor more sympathetic. I actually began to forgive the earlier stuff and accept him as a man plced in an incredible, stressful situation who had to make hard choices.
So I would say the arc could only add to his character.
Vons
I could not disagree more. I think that S3 really helped define Archer. He was carrying much more weight on his shoulders in a situation with really high stakes. We got to see him develop under pressure, sometimes make tough and questionable decisions, and think on his feet. The Archer we see in, for example, The Shipment and Strategem, is a wholly different Archer than we saw in S1. S3 Archer was better written, characterized, and acted.
Having all those races as Xindi was stretching it, and having the reptilians and insectoids as the 2D baddies got to be a bit tedious - I remember an episode of a sixties SF TV show when a 'monster' turned out to have a reasonable motivation for killing - to wit self-defense - then turned out to be 'civilised' and 'reasonable'.
I think that was Star Trek.
Fair enough, Archer uses reason and guile to reverse the Xindi position, but the plot device too far was the use of trans-dimensional aliens. Why not have the Romulans pull the Xindi strings as they like to do, segue into more Romulan intrigue before the Big Show (which we never see)?
I think that was Star Trek.
Fair enough, Archer uses reason and guile to reverse the Xindi position, but the plot device too far was the use of trans-dimensional aliens. Why not have the Romulans pull the Xindi strings as they like to do, segue into more Romulan intrigue before the Big Show (which we never see)?
I wouldn't go that far. Season 3 Archer was always in the character somewhere (I don't know that the TPTB necessarily would have gone there had the ratings not been so down though).
From one perspective the first two seasons where pretty much about crushing Archer's prospects of living out his father's dream. Back when i first saw the episode Bounty I wrote this in a review for another board talking about the characters of the Tellarite bounty hunter and Archer:
I think most of it is still a valid assessment (although with his dad turning out to have died when he was young maybe not the bit about the cargo hauler). Plus the female shape-shifting slug from Rogue Planet told him not to stop searching (i don't think it's a big stretch to suggest she meant search for his own place in the universe)
The Xindi attack was just the final nail in the coffin. He needed that final slap in the face and it's consequences to set him off on the course of finding his own vision (Personally I'm not sure they showed that well enough in S4 but that's a quibble for another thread).
For me personally, i'm kinda torn on the whole Season 3 thing. On the one hand Archer's journey was interesting and compelling. On the other, the thing I loved most about Enterprise was the characters and the way they interacted (especially the Archer/Trip friendship). With all three of the main characters isolating themselves from each other, some of that was lost during the season to imo the show's detriment. And while i like angst as much as the next person, endless angst kinda gets to me - season 3 and Archer's character arc was treading the fine line for me.
On the whole though it worked. So the Archer character wasn't killed, just slightly battered and bruised
I never really watched Enterprise during its first run so I've decided to start from the very beginning. I'm only a couple of episodes into the first season and I think I've spotted the problem - the characters.
There's too little depth and where they do have some substance or some reason for conflict (e.g. Archer and T'Pol) it isn't explored enough.
Also, Reed, Travis and Sato are so paper thin that they don't really need to be in the show at all.
There's too little depth and where they do have some substance or some reason for conflict (e.g. Archer and T'Pol) it isn't explored enough.
Also, Reed, Travis and Sato are so paper thin that they don't really need to be in the show at all.
The three episodes after Broken Bow are pretty much shit. Once you get past them, the series takes off and moves through stretches of decent to great episodes with only a handful of regressive clunkers.
I've been rewatching the whole series for the past month and have just finished Season 3 and think that this season has some of the best Star Trek episodes of any of the series. Each season of Ent has standouts, but 3, i think, has the most consecutive awesome episodes running right up until Space Nazis, which, thankfully, was quickly corrected in season 4.
Anyway, I've grown to love these characters all over again and on top of Archer growing season to season, especially in 3, I've noticed all the characters have grown, at least somewhat and each has been given things to do even when they're not the focus of an episode. That bullshit that was flying around during the first run about how Mayweather and Sato never get to do anything is just that - bullshit. For low ranking non-big three characters they get to do tons of stuff. More than say, Dr. Crusher ever got to do with three more seasons under her belt.
I can't wait to launch into Season 4 and relearn where they're going next. I might even gain a new appreciation for These Are the Voyages... ... well, maybe I'll just skip to the founding ceremony.
I've been rewatching the whole series for the past month and have just finished Season 3 and think that this season has some of the best Star Trek episodes of any of the series. Each season of Ent has standouts, but 3, i think, has the most consecutive awesome episodes running right up until Space Nazis, which, thankfully, was quickly corrected in season 4.
Anyway, I've grown to love these characters all over again and on top of Archer growing season to season, especially in 3, I've noticed all the characters have grown, at least somewhat and each has been given things to do even when they're not the focus of an episode. That bullshit that was flying around during the first run about how Mayweather and Sato never get to do anything is just that - bullshit. For low ranking non-big three characters they get to do tons of stuff. More than say, Dr. Crusher ever got to do with three more seasons under her belt.
I can't wait to launch into Season 4 and relearn where they're going next. I might even gain a new appreciation for These Are the Voyages... ... well, maybe I'll just skip to the founding ceremony.
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