Did the Prophets intend for the Bajoran Occupation to occur?

[Citiprime]

It's ultimately revealed the Prophets manipulated events to specifically ensure Sisko's parents would meet and produce him in order for Sisko to be The Emissary.

If you start unraveling that idea, then it's possible the Prophets also manipulated other events in order to get a specific result. So one possibility of that might be the Prophets either perpetuated or allowed the Cardassian Occupation to go on as long as it did in order to setup the situation for Sisko to end up at Deep Space Nine and discover the wormhole.

The implication of that for the Bajorans would be monstrous. That their "gods" allowed them and their entire planet to be abused in order to bring forth Sisko. Another option in this is that it's Sisko's fault.

Sisko teaches the Prophets about linear time. When they are first encountered, they do not claim to be "of Bajor" or show any interest in "corporeal matters." As the series progresses (and it's difficult to reconcile before and after with a species who doesn't have before or after), the Prophets take on more of the role of being Bajor's gods. Therefore, it's possible that Sisko is the impetus for them becoming Bajor's deities, and everything they do to manipulate history comes from Sisko's interaction with them.

 

[Ragitsu]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

 

[FederationHistorian]

By that metric, it also suggests that they manipulated the events of the Battle of Wolf 359, to get Sisko to DS9. And they manipulated the Federation-Cardassian border wars, so that the Federation could be in a position to take over Terok Nor from the Cardassians when the Bajoran Occupation ended. With no other consideration for the wider consequences of their actions.

The Prophets are responsible for a great deal of pain and suffering in the Alpha Quadrant, and undermined the utopia established by the Federation.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Oh what a surprise, yet another DS9 thread immediately turning into a rant against God and faith.

 

[Ragitsu]

Oh what a surprise, yet another DS9 thread immediately turning into a rant against God and faith.

A) A single quote does not a rant make.
B) I posted that quote in support of the idea that the wormhole aliens are not gods (in addition to their lack of omnipotence, lack of omniscience, their inability to understand linear time until explained to them by a Schrodinger's half-wormhole alien and their vulnerability to a mortal technology).

 

[STEPhon IT]

It's ultimately revealed the Prophets manipulated events to specifically ensure Sisko's parents would meet and produce him in order for Sisko to be The Emissary.

If you start unraveling that idea, then it's possible the Prophets also manipulated other events in order to get a specific result. So one possibility of that might be the Prophets either perpetuated or allowed the Cardassian Occupation to go on as long as it did in order to setup the situation for Sisko to end up at Deep Space Nine and discover the wormhole.

The implication of that for the Bajorans would be monstrous. That their "gods" allowed them and their entire planet to be abused in order to bring forth Sisko. Another option in this is that it's Sisko's fault.

Sisko teaches the Prophets about linear time. When they are first encountered, they do not claim to be "of Bajor" or show any interest in "corporeal matters." As the series progresses (and it's difficult to reconcile before and after with a species who doesn't have before or after), the Prophets take on more of the role of being Bajor's gods. Therefore, it's possible that Sisko is the impetus for them becoming Bajor's deities, and everything they do to manipulate history comes from Sisko's interaction with them.

These are some of the greatest sins developed during the 4th through 7th seasons of the series. I accepted the grounds of Sisko being; when the series started he was chosen to be the Emissary because of what he'd been through, and could restore Bajor from the atrocities of the Occupation. His connection with the wormhole aliens was his thought process was nonlinear because he couldn't let go of the death of his wife and the Borg was the reason for it. Later it had nothing to do with that, it was all about "Divine Intervention" and "Divine Right"; he had to be a bastard offspring of Bajor and a Christ figure. There was no need to ape off of Earth's religious superstitions so closely, what they had before was a nice mystery where it wasn't necessary to fully explain it. You bring in this unnecessary inclusions spawns forth the devil nonsense along with the evil versions of the group.

It was content overload, there was enough on the table for Sisko to confront, dealing with the multi-faceted Cardassians, and the exploration of the Wormhole and the Gamma Quadrant to help and protect Bajor.

Your post is so on point, which is another reason why I loathed those dreadful seasons. Its an awful thought but this is the same Sisko who aimed to murder Federation citizens to capture a less than a threat, lowlife, named Michael Eddington and bend over backwards with Garak to lure the Romulans into a ridiculous war. When the shit hit the fan and he bit off more than he could chew, he magically delivered the most pathetic "Get out of Jail - Free Card" by asking those Wormhole Aliens to make his enemies disappear. And I thought warping to a Sun to stop a trilithium Soran bomb was laughably beyond my suspension of disbelief. Compelling writing was over with after season 3.

 

[dupersuper]

Oh what a surprise, yet another DS9 thread immediately turning into a rant against God and faith.

You have a low threshold for what you consider a "rant".

 

[Citiprime]

Later it had nothing to do with that, it was all about "Divine Intervention" and "Divine Right"; he had to be a bastard offspring of Bajor and a Christ figure ... When the shit hit the fan and he bit off more than he could chew, he magically delivered the most pathetic "Get out of Jail - Free Card" by asking those Wormhole Aliens to make his enemies disappear.

In the end, Sisko is more Moses than Jesus.

The Prophets intervening to stop the Dominion fleet is basically Moses getting God's help to crush the Egyptians with the Red Sea. Also, just like Moses, Sisko can secure a promised land for his people, but he's not allowed to rest there.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Very true, but Moses was banished by God because he disobeyed, but Sisko died and resurrected and his mother was a deity.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sisko was his own Mother.

 

[kkt]

God as benevolent and all-powerful is in the abrahamic religions... but that's not the only possible pantheon.

 

[Trekker09]

In the end, Sisko is more Moses than Jesus.
The Prophets intervening to stop the Dominion fleet is basically Moses getting God's help to crush the Egyptians with the Red Sea. Also, just like Moses, Sisko can secure a promised land for his people, but he's not allowed to rest there.

I’d agree that Sisko was more like Moses, until his final self-sacrifice and “resurrection.”

The writers were making it up as they went along, combining elements from many sources. The Prophets being vulnerable to chroniton particles puts them in the same camp with Superman and kryptonite, or Achilles’ heel. They were never meant to be identified with the creator of the universe.

I like what Michael Piller said in 2002:
“The Prophets, prophecies and orbs take Star Trek into the metaphysical world for the first time....We are not changing the rules of the Star Trek universe, we're simply exploring the rules of another alien race, and what they consider important, and we're seeing how we as humans in the 24th c might react to that, how we might learn from that. I think that was one of the things which Roddenberry loved about the new Star Trek, that instead of going out and teaching people… humanity was out to learn, and I think that was the key to DS9.”

 

[somebuddyX]

The Blue Prophets used the Sisko's incursion to rid themselves of the Red Prophets because they were a bunch of dirty racists, banishing the Red Prophets to the realm of corporeality and cutoff off from the temporal access of the Wormhole. At the same time the Blue Prophets used their non-corporeal powers to engineer the Bajoran society and religion, Captain Sisko's birth, probably some other stuff, all so that it would culminate in Captain Sisko throwing a book down a hole and imprisoning their brethren once and for all.

 

[Citiprime]

I’d agree that Sisko was more like Moses, until his final self-sacrifice and “resurrection.”

If I remember correctly, the “resurrection” was the result of Avery Brooks disliking the original ending as written where Sisko died.

 

[Trekker09]

From what I've read, Sisko was definitely going to be "resurrected" among the Prophets at the end, but Brooks persuaded them to add the possibility of returning to corporeal life with Kasidy at some point.

 

[Ragitsu]

The Blue Prophets used the Sisko's incursion to rid themselves of the Red Prophets because they were a bunch of dirty racists, banishing the Red Prophets to the realm of corporeality and cutoff off from the temporal access of the Wormhole. At the same time the Blue Prophets used their non-corporeal powers to engineer the Bajoran society and religion, Captain Sisko's birth, probably some other stuff, all so that it would culminate in Captain Sisko throwing a book down a hole and imprisoning their brethren once and for all.

"Next time, on Dragon Ball Z..."

 

[Kor]

Sisko was his own Mother.

That kind of scenario would have been interesting, like Heinlein's "All You Zombies" which was published way back in 1959. But it would probably be too 'out there' for TV sci-fi audiences.

Kor

 

[Watersluis]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

The prrophets were never said by their religion to be omnipotent.

The word “god” clearly prædates it's usage to describe the supposedly omnipotent Abrahamic god and has been used for the gods of many religions which were never said to be omnipotent. Ascribing omnipotence to gods is mostly associated with Abrahamic religions and even there, many theologians take the stance that this is to be interpreted as simply a highly powerful being with powers well above mortal men, not literal omnipotence. After all, it did take the entity six days to create the world, and he needed to rest thereafter, which is surely not technical omnipotence.

Finally, perhaps the English word “omnipotent” has since acquired a stronger meaning than the original Latin word whence it derived. “all-powerful” in English seems to be somewhat lighter in it's interpretation than “omnipotent” as well, in practice.

 

[Ragitsu]

How do you define "god"?

 

[Guy Gardener]

That kind of scenario would have been interesting, like Heinlein's "All You Zombies" which was published way back in 1959. But it would probably be too 'out there' for TV sci-fi audiences.

Kor

Futurama.