Did the Dominion War destabilize the Alpha quadrant?

[C.E. Evans]

You may have gotten more than you bargained for.

'Destiny', made the borg kill 64 BILLION people, brought the federation to its knees and left it there (the federation had nothing to do with the events that, in the end, allowed its survival).
Beyond the material devastation, think of the trauma the federation suffered: Pearl Harbour or 9/11 times a thousand.

If future novels in this continuity want to be even remotely plausible, you won't be seeing much TOS-like optimism and thirst for exploration or TNG-like self assuredness in them. What you will see is a strong isolationist movement and major social changes in the federation.

While I don't think the events in Destiny are going to be swept under the rug and forgotten--indeed, I expect the consequences of the final Borg offensive to be remembered forever in Federation society--I actually don't think we'll see the books be quite that bleak and dreary. There probably will be references to reconstruction for quite some time, but I don't believe the books will focus too heavily on that. I think it will be more of a case of it being a new world order in the Quadrant and the Federation will be left behind if it gets too complacent...

One problem - that wouldn't even be close to realistic.
The book line utterly trashed the federation - materially and spiritually (in its selfconfidence, etc); it it assumes such a traumatic event have no effect on the federation psyche - beyond some memorials and refugee camps - then it's not even trying to be plausible.

Actually, the Federation was not utterly trashed. It came extremely close to being so, and there were some key worlds that were indeed put to the torch, but the majority of Federation worlds were actually left untouched. Yes, the entire Federation was shaken by the final Borg assault unlike ever before in its history, no doubt, but it was far from totally decimated.

New order inside the quadrant - fine. What about inside the federation, who suffered the greatest losses?

The biggest loss the Federation suffered was to Starfleet--forty percent of the fleet was lost during the battle. The biggest obstacle in the post-Borg era is that Starfleet is stretched painfully thin and is no longer able to carry out all of its responsibilities as effectively. The phrase "the only ship in the quadrant" is almost as true today as it was in TOS.

As a result, there are some Federation worlds--especially those farther out on the frontier--that are having it more rough than others because of a lack of starships.

It's sort of become crucial to seek out new allies and members for the Federation...

 

[ProtoAvatar]

C. E. Evans

Tell me, the effects of 9/11 are restricted to two skyscrappers demolished and a few thousand dead?

Well, what happened to the federation in 'Destiny' makes 9/11 look insignificant by comparison.
The trauma the federation suffered makes 9/11 look like a joke. Especially considering how impotent the federation was and remained to prevent that orgy of death. How unimaginably many died.

And 63 BILLION DEAD and half the army demolished is 'utterly trashed' by any definition of the concept.
If you start counting now, you won't reach a billion by the time you die - not even close. Now, consider each number you counted was a person, with dreams, hopes, family. Now, multiply all this by a thousand and you'll have a pale ideea of what the federation lost in 'Destiny'.
The loss the federation suffered truly is beyond human comprehension.

And you actually come and say that "The biggest loss the Federation suffered was to Starfleet"? You have no ideea what you're talking about.

 

[C.E. Evans]

C. E. Evans

Tell me, the effects of 9/11 are restricted to two skyscrappers demolished and a few thousand dead?

Well, what happened to the federation in 'Destiny' makes 9/11 look insignificant by comparison.
The trauma the federation suffered makes 9/11 look like a joke. Especially considering how impotent the federation was and remained in the trilogy to prevent that orgy of death.

And 63 BILLION DEAD and half the army demolished is 'utterly trashed' by any definition of the concept.
If you start counting now, you won't reach a billion by the time you die - not even close. Now, consider each number you counted was a person, with dreams, hopes, family. Now, multiply all this by a thousand and you'll have a pale ideea of what the federation lost in 'Destiny'.
The loss the federation suffered truly is beyond human comprehension.

And yet, it could have been much much worse. While 63 billion is indeed horrific (which by the way, also includes totals from the Klingon and Romulan Empires too), had the Borg prevailed, it could possibly have been ten times or more that. In comparison what could have been, the fact that the majority of the Federation was untouched is nothing to sneeze at.

And you actually come and say that "The biggest loss the Federation suffered was to Starfleet"? You have no ideea what you're talking about.

Overreacting, much?

Statistically speaking, yes, Starfleet took the biggest hit. Forty percent was lost. The Federation in general faired comparatively better (I would wager 30 percent was devastated, but less than 10 percent was actually lost).

Yes, a number of Federation worlds got toasted and tens of billions died. I'm not minimizing that, but I also recognize that the majority of worlds weren't. Of 150+ worlds, more than 100 probably weren't even touched by the Borg. Of the dozens of worlds that were hit hard, only 6 were said to be probably beyond repair.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

C. E. Evans

Tell me, what percent of the american population was killed in 9/11?
Do you think the americans reacted to this like ~"It could have been worse? It's not even 1% losses?" Guess what - these 'insignificant' losses had a profound effect on the american mindset.

You said the federation was "far from totally decimated"?
Well, Starfleet lost significantly more than 10% during the onslaught.
And I seriouly doubt the federation population numbered more than 640 BILLION - considering that the alpha/beta quadrants population (EVERYONE from half a galaxy) numbered only about 2 trillion. So yes, 64 BILLION DEAD IS DECIMATED and then some.

"Overreacting, much?"
No, C. E. Evans. You see, it's not possible to 'overreact' in the face of such loss:
"If you start counting now, you won't reach a billion by the time you die - not even close. Now, consider each number you counted was a person, with dreams, hopes, family. Now, multiply all this by a thousand and you'll have a pale ideea of what the federation lost in 'Destiny'.
The loss the federation suffered truly is beyond human comprehension."

9/11 is a joke compared to what happened to the federation in 'Destiny'. The trauma America suffered due to 9/11 is a joke by comparison to the trauma the federation should suffer, if the book line is interested in plausibility.

 

[captcalhoun]

and you're not over-reacting at all...

 

[C.E. Evans]

The Federation took a major blow, and no one has denied that--but I still maintain that the overwhelming majority of the Federation was left intact. It's not in total ruins, and yes, is far from that. There's no doubt that things are very bad on those worlds that were hit, but the Federation will recover and rebuild.

 

[MNM]

The events in the Destiny series was merely to shake up the status quo in the 24th-Century by taking the Federation down a peg and introducing a new rival for the top power in the Quadrant.

Dont go calling the Typhon Pact a "rival" to the Federation in the literature forum, you will get jumped on by many people who take exception to such things being said, despite them clearly being one...

 

[captcalhoun]

nobody's disputed the Typhon Pact being a rival. what's been disputed is the assumption that the UFP and it's Khitomer allies are going to wind up in a full-on shooting war with the Pact.

 

[T'Girl]

nobody's disputed the Typhon Pact being a rival. what's been disputed is the assumption that the UFP and it's Khitomer allies are going to wind up in a full-on shooting war with the Pact.

I believed it would be much more interesting if there was once again another interstellar government that provided some serious competition for the Federation in the Alpha Quadrant

It would be interesting if the Federation newest adversary were to compete with the Federation as something other that just another (tiresome) evil empire. No obsessive leaders, not militarily expansionists, lacking paranoid belligerents, insert your cliche here.
Make them competitors, economic competitors, trade competitors. Not only are they blocking the Federation's continuing outward expansion, they themselves are starting to explore the Federation's space, planets near the board region are seceding from the Federation and joining the other government.

 

[C.E. Evans]

nobody's disputed the Typhon Pact being a rival. what's been disputed is the assumption that the UFP and it's Khitomer allies are going to wind up in a full-on shooting war with the Pact.

I believed it would be much more interesting if there was once again another interstellar government that provided some serious competition for the Federation in the Alpha Quadrant

It would be interesting if the Federation newest adversary were to compete with the Federation as something other that just another (tiresome) evil empire. No obsessive leaders, not militarily expansionists, lacking paranoid belligerents, insert your cliche here.
Make them competitors, economic competitors, trade competitors.

That actually seems the route they're going in the novels from what I've been able to tell. Not so much "We will crush the Federation" as it is "Move over, Federation."

 

[T'Girl]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^
I might have to resume reading Trek novels.

 

[captcalhoun]

there's four novels coming in the Typhon Pact mini-series tail end of this year, beginning of next. One deals with Bashir and Sarina Douglas on a spy mission into Breen space, one deals with Spock and the Romulans and the split between the Romulans since NEM that the books have done, one's to do with the Gorn and Riker's Titan and the fourth involves the Enterprise-E and a conference on Andoria. more of a diplomacy thing.

 

[JarodRussell]

Did the Dominion War destabilize the Alpha quadrant?

About as much as World War II destabilized the world.