Did the Cardassians get a bad wrap?

[GalaxyClass1701]

Ok we all know they did terrible things during the Occupation but why were they painted so badly? How is it any different from when the Klingons conquer a world and kill millions to do so. When the Klingons did it they were never painted in such a negative light and it was like Manny being Manny or Klingons being Klingons.

Am I making any sense here? It just seems to me that the Cardassians were painted as evil monsters and people reacted to the Klingons as "Oh those crazy Klingons"

 

[indolover]

I think there was some bad blood over the Border Wars, which only ended a few years before DS9 started (in the Trek universe that is).

And I think the Federation looks down on anybody not like itself. The Ferengi are too greedy, the Klingons too violent, the Cardassians too militaristic and fascist, the Romulans too treacherous and sneaky, etc.

They may not have criticised Klingons much since they're allies.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Part of it is probably just due to the fact that DS9 is focused on Bajor, which was not only occupied by the Cardassians, but systematically stripped of its resources and then abandoned by the Cardassians once they no longer had a use for it. The Klingons were never involved in what happened to Bajor, so we don't hear about the kind of things that go on on the worlds they've conquered.

Likewise, though this is probably just my assumption, but I would think that after the Praxis explosion, the Klingons have learned the value of not strip-mining what they want from their conquest planets. What good is an Empire if you strip all your resources with no way of replenishing them? Eventually the Empire would collapse. But the Cardassians don't have a Praxis equivilant in their history, so they just take what they need, heedless of the consequences.

 

[Navaros]

Yes, the Cardassians did get a bad wrap.

It is a case of the writers being silly and wanting 'evilize' a race, I assume in order to make us care when the Bajorans incessantly whine in every episode. However, that strategy failed big-time.

For as much as DS9 didn't stick to the status quo, unfortunately it did stick to the status quo in trying to paint very clear "good guys" and "evil bad guys". Of course, they fubared that up too by making the Federation be evil despite the fact that they nonetheless tried to paint the Federation as "good."

 

[Red Ranger]

Yes, they got a bad wrap -- every time they ordered the chicken quesadilla from the replimat at Terok Nor! (Kidding.)

No, I think they got a fair rap, after 60 years of raping Bajor, figuratively and, in Gul Dukat's case, literally -- he couldn't keep his pecker in his pants.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

Yes, they got a bad wrap -- every time they ordered the chicken quesadilla from the replimat at Terok Nor! (Kidding.)

No, I think they got a fair rap, after 60 years of raping Bajor, figuratively and, in Gul Dukat's case, literally -- he couldn't keep his pecker in his pants.

How are they any different than the Klingons through and they were casted as warrior heros?

 

[T'Boggan]

I think that largely we saw the Facist and oppressive side of the Cardassian nature as seen from the Bajoran side. There were storylines where we saw peacefull, rebellious, and other sides of the Cardassians. They are portrayed as choosing to follow the role of the oppressor from their natures in a considered manor. The Klingons nature is seen as a matter of biology and evolution. They are a highly evolved predatorial species and that is their nature. The only thing considered is how to express that nature.

 

[indolover]

I don't think it's a consistent criticism. The Federation has Argana as a member world, which essentially practices slavery.

The Romulans enslave the Remans, the Ferengi (pre-Rom being Grand Nagus) oppress their women, etc.

 

[Praxius]

Ok we all know they did terrible things during the Occupation but why were they painted so badly? How is it any different from when the Klingons conquer a world and kill millions to do so. When the Klingons did it they were never painted in such a negative light and it was like Manny being Manny or Klingons being Klingons.

Am I making any sense here? It just seems to me that the Cardassians were painted as evil monsters and people reacted to the Klingons as "Oh those crazy Klingons"

The Klingons were more straight forward with their approach of things.

They'd conquer a land and perhaps kill a bunch of people in the process, but it was usually during battle they did this and if they were going to kill someone, it'd be quick and "With Honor"

Meanwhile the Cardassians used slave labor, treated everybody else as sub-standard species compared to themselves, they brutally tortured people (Picard, O'Brian.... it was Garak's other profession that went with assassinations), held farce trials where the person was found guilty before it begun and was usually based on faulty evidence. They got pleasure in others suffering.

Basically if one was to relate Klingons and Cardassians to Human history/cultures.... Klingons would be more like Vikings, while the Cardassians were more like Nazis. (The writers certainly played the Cardassians like they were Nazis anyways)

Added:

But let's not forget that the Cardassians were not always portrayed as evil. Up until they joined with the Dominion and if one kinda ignored/forgot about their Bajor occupation, they did help the Federation at times, showed compassion, shot some fireworks off when Sisko made it to their territory in a Bajoran solar glider.

In fact, Seasons 2-3-4 the Cardassians are shown much differently.... and in the final episodes of Season 7, it seems as those they eventually see the wrongs they have done and at least try to correct them, all the while trying to liberate their own lands from occupation.... with Garak now back home, and the Dominion war over, they probably have changed from their past.... although, probably not by much.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

The Klingons were more straight forward with their approach of things.

They'd conquer a land and perhaps kill a bunch of people in the process, but it was usually during battle they did this and if they were going to kill someone, it'd be quick and "With Honor"

Meanwhile the Cardassians used slave labor, treated everybody else as sub-standard species compared to themselves, they brutally tortured people (Picard, O'Brian.... it was Garak's other profession that went with assassinations), held farce trials where the person was found guilty before it begun and was usually based on faulty evidence.

Basically if one was to relate Klingons and Cardassians to Human history/cultures.... Klingons would be more like Vikings, while the Cardassians were more like Nazis. (The writers certainly played the Cardassians like they were Nazis anyways)[/QUOTE]

Thanks this is a very interesting way to look at it.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Klingons were every bit as nasty as the cardassians.

They subjugated other species, used mass civilian executions to maintain control, treated the conquered species as second class citizens and exploited their worlds for resources, and felt entitled to do all these.

The difference between the klingons and the cardassians is that with the klingons, in DS9, the writers decided to present only their 'cool side' and overlook the crimes that lay beneath, while with the cardassians, all these dirty little (and LARGE) secrets were exposed.

GalaxyClass1701 - the vikings were not the nicest of people. Example - the viking raids of Britain. They killed, burned and stole everything they could get their hands on.

 

[sonak]

I think it's partially a matter of who's a Federation ally at the time. In TOS, The Klingons WERE portrayed in a harsh light because they were "cold war" enemies of the Federation. Once they were allies in TNG, their qualities of honor and courage were emphasized. Then in DS9, at the beginning when the Federation was helping the Bajorans and the Cardassians were recent conquerors, the Cardassian were portrayed in a harsher light. During that season 4 arc where the Klingons try to invade Cardassia, the Cardassians were portrayed more sympathetically and the Klingons as aggresively hostile. This flipped AGAIN when the Cardassians became Dominion allies and the Klingons fought alongside the Federation.

So a lot has to do with who the viewer is supposed to see as allies and who they're supposed to see as enemies.


But yeah, the Cardassians' conquest of Bajor, combined with forced labor camps, torture, and massacres can't really be portrayed any other way but negatively.

 

[Navaros]

raping Bajor, figuratively and, in Gul Dukat's case, literally -- he couldn't keep his pecker in his pants.

Gul Dukat never raped anyone. That's an extremely sick suggestion.

Lots of Bajoran women did willingly ask for Dukat to bang them though, like Kira's mother. That is because Dukat is a great guy who did everything he could to improve the conditions for Bajorans.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Navaros

Dukat presided over genocide, is directly responsible for the death of millions of bajorans, and you think his raping someone is a 'sick suggestion'?
Dukat crossed that bridge a long time ago.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

raping Bajor, figuratively and, in Gul Dukat's case, literally -- he couldn't keep his pecker in his pants.

Gul Dukat never raped anyone. That's an extremely sick suggestion.

Lots of Bajoran women did willingly ask for Dukat to bang them though, like Kira's mother. That is because Dukat is a great guy who did everything he could to improve the conditions for Bajorans.

Are you Gul DUkat?

 

[Myasishchev]

Ok we all know they did terrible things during the Occupation but why were they painted so badly? How is it any different from when the Klingons conquer a world and kill millions to do so. When the Klingons did it they were never painted in such a negative light and it was like Manny being Manny or Klingons being Klingons.

Am I making any sense here? It just seems to me that the Cardassians were painted as evil monsters and people reacted to the Klingons as "Oh those crazy Klingons"

The Feds and Bajorans are both unreliable narrators.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Ok we all know they did terrible things during the Occupation but why were they painted so badly? How is it any different from when the Klingons conquer a world and kill millions to do so. When the Klingons did it they were never painted in such a negative light and it was like Manny being Manny or Klingons being Klingons.

Am I making any sense here? It just seems to me that the Cardassians were painted as evil monsters and people reacted to the Klingons as "Oh those crazy Klingons"

The Klingons got an undeserved good rap--I think that the Federation should never have entered the TYPE of alliance with them that they did. The constant excuses and the leeway given to the Klingons' reprehensible behavior was just disgusting.

As for the Cardassians, let me put it this way. Central Command and the Obsidian Order also deserved every bit of condemnation they got. But, it is important to remember that there were dissidents and others who didn't agree but could not act. I think, as regards the Cardassians, that's fair.

 

[Praxius]

..... GalaxyClass1701 - the vikings were not the nicest of people. Example - the viking raids of Britain. They killed, burned and stole everything they could get their hands on.

Don't forget about the rapings and abducting people to take back home.

The Vikings were brutal, but also did it out of necessity due to very little being able to be grown or developed in their territories, they had to take resources from those around them to survive.

The Nazis however, sought world domination and to either wipe out all those not like them or use them for slave labour, while providing very little food, etc. for their prisoners to survive... and when they became weak, they either died, or they shot them to simply get rid of them (Or to the burners/gas chambers)

The Vikings sought out resources and territory out of necessity and their spiritual beliefs revolved mostly around war and battle, ie: Valhalla.

But the Nazis were methodically evil with their approach.... they didn't commit their actions out of necessity, they did it because they felt they were the superior race and it was their right to dominate all. (Not to mention they were pretty bitter about their conditions in Germany after WWI)

The Vikings had Valhalla.... the Klingons had StoVoKor.

The Cardassians oppressed the Bajorans.... the Nazis Oppressed the Jews (along with many many other minorities, such as homosexuals and others who were not blond haired and white skinned)

 

[DevilEyes]

Well, I thought the purple wrap was quite cool, but the multicolor tie was a bit too much...

Oh wait, that's not what you thought?

What does that mean, they get a bad rap? For having an oppressive, authoritarian state? We know that's true. For being an expansionist, militaristic, ruthless military power? We know that's true, too. For oppressing Bajorans for 40+ years, using them as slave labor in very bad conditions, starving them, torturing them, conducting horrible medical experiments on them, separating women from their families and forcing them to be sex slaves, killing some 10 millions of them, draining the resources of their planet, and finally did their best to spoil their land before they left, out of sheer spite? We know that is true, too. How and why would anyone get a good or neutral rap for it?

But the thing about "evilizing" a race makes no sense. DS9 didn't do it, because DS9 didn't advocate racism. It's clear that Cardassian politics were evil and the actions of their state were evil, but it's deeply wrong to claim that a race in general is evil and that every member of a certain race is evil and guilty for the crimes of a state and its military. That's the kind of thinking that leads to genocide, and anyone who thinks that about another race is proving to be no different from what he/she is supposedly condemning. Of course, DS9 is not a show that promotes racism and genocide, and it made it abundantly clear that there are all sorts of different Cardassians, and all sorts of Bajorans, and all sorts of Humans, and all sorts of Founders, and even all sorts of Jem'Hadar.

Going back to states and their politics, your question should be re-formulated in "Do Klingons (i.e. the Klingon Empire) get a better rap than they deserve?" It's true that modern Trek hasn't really focused enough on Klingon crimes and Klingon oppression. But it doesn't follow that this somehow lets Cardassians or Romulans or anyone else off the hook. That's like saying that a serial killer gets a bad rap because his crimes have been all over the news, while some other serial killer wasn't. ce

The Cardassians oppressed the Bajorans.... the Nazis Oppressed the Jews (along with many many other minorities, such as homosexuals and others who were not blond haired and white skinned)

The Nazis did not just "oppress" Jews - they oppressed some other ethnic groups and regarded them as inferior, but they sought to EXTERMINATE Jews. For sheer oppression and enslavement that does not go that far, you can look for many other examples, including any colonial power.

And again, do I have to continuously point out how absurd it is to compare Cardassians to Nazis since one is a RACE/SPECIES and the other one is a POLITICAL PARTY/IDEOLOGY? I'm afraid you'll have to substitute "Germans" for "Nazis" for those statements to make sense...

Another point where your comparison breaks down is the necessity issue. We know that Cardassia occupied Bajor not because they hated Bajorans (no doubt, there were plenty of Cardassians who hated Bajorans, but I think it's more likely that this came later, as a result of the oppressed population fighting back through the resistance), but because they needed their natural resources. Necessity doesn't excuse anything. The issue is how they went about it - they thought they had a right to come there and take what they needed, and they thought of Bajorans as inferior just because they had a different culture. Regarding another race as inferior is as bad as hating them, especially when you think it gives you the right to enslave them and expect them to be grateful. The Nazis weren't certainly not the only one in history who did that.

 

[Praxius]

...... The Nazis did not just "oppress" Jews - they oppressed some other ethnic groups and regarded them as inferior, but they sought to EXTERMINATE Jews. For sheer oppression and enslavement that does not go that far, you can look for many other examples, including any colonial power.

They did the exact same things to other minorities as they did to the Jewish people, they just targeted the Jewish people more because they were used as the main focal point of their problems in the world.

It wasn't just Jewish people sent to concentration camps, gas chambers, and being executed at whim.... yet it would seem our history would like to make it sound like it was.

I have no issue with Jewish people, but I do have an issue when our own societies like to act like they were the only ones treated this way.

And again, do I have to continuously point out how absurd it is to compare Cardassians to Nazis since one is a RACE/SPECIES and the other one is a POLITICAL PARTY/IDEOLOGY? I'm afraid you'll have to substitute "Germans" for "Nazis" for those statements to make sense...

I was using the term "Nazi" as a short term of "Nazi Germany"

If I said Germans alone, then that could imply that they still do this/believe this/act this way today... saying the Nazis is a pretty obvious relation to Nazi Germany of WWII, since last I checked, there haven't been any other Nazi political parties in the world since.

Regardless, Cardassia being a race/planet/species and the "Nazis" being a political party/ideology is irrelevant to the connections, considering that the Universe of Star Trek is solely based on our history and our own culture (Since we know of no other cultures to derive from but our own.)

Also, Political Parties are generally based on and function on ideologies.... Republicans/Conservatives..... Liberals/Democrats.... left wing/right wing.... Religious based, etc. Their ideologies generally shape the way a nation will function and what the people in general believe, which is exactly what the Nazi party was built on and is exactly how they were able to do what they did in WWII with the support of their own people and those who think like them.

They felt they were the master race and it was their duty/right to do what they did..... just as the Cardassians expressed a similar mentality.

Whether you're talking about a fictional alien race or a political party of our past.... the mentalities and actions were very much the same.

Another point where your comparison breaks down is the necessity issue. We know that Cardassia occupied Bajor not because they hated Bajorans (no doubt, there were plenty of Cardassians who hated Bajorans, but I think it's more likely that this came later, as a result of the oppressed population fighting back through the resistance), but because they needed their natural resources. Necessity doesn't excuse anything. The issue is how they went about it - they thought they had a right to come there and take what they needed, and they thought of Bajorans as inferior just because they had a different culture. Regarding another race as inferior is as bad as hating them, especially when you think it gives you the right to enslave them and expect them to be grateful. The Nazis weren't certainly not the only one in history who did that.

I never said they were, but they did it with precision and did it on the largest mass scale our history has recorded, thus they take the cake.

As it goes for "Needing" Bajor's resources, I don't buy it.

If they really needed their resources, why did they simply give up the system in their talks with the Federation? After losing Bajor, they sure seemed to do just dandy without those resources.

As far as I'm concerned, you're trying to split hairs of actions, when I was mostly attempting to focus on the mentalities between the two..... which you supported by saying:

"they thought of Bajorans as inferior just because they had a different culture. Regarding another race as inferior is as bad as hating them, especially when you think it gives you the right to enslave them and expect them to be grateful."

^ Which is exactly what I have been trying to say and exactly what "Nazi Germany" did to the other cultures/societies they took over.

The Cardassians thought of the Bajorans as primitive, backwards and inferior and if they just accepted their roles as the inferior race and did what they wanted them to, their oppression would have been much more easier.

Look at the episode "Waltz" in DS9 and exactly how Dukat tried to justify his actions and you will see how closely they tried to relate it to many of the German leaders/officers held for War Crimes tried to justify their actions in WWII. Even Dukat eventually said he should have killed them all when he had the chance.... sound familiar?

Regardless of how the Cardassians came to occupy and kill off so many of their people, the end result relates very closely to Nazi Germany.

If they don't, then by all means, please correct me and tell me whom the Cardassians relate to more in our past.

If you say they were never supposed to relate to anything of our past, then I strongly suggest you read up on your history some more.

My argument stands.