Did Starfleet have a facility on Vulcan?

[Timo]

ST ENT showed that the native armed forces still exist. Reed joined Starfleet instead of the Royal Navy.

OTOH, all we really know is that his dad would have wanted him to continue the family tradition of serving on top of lots of water. This does not mean the Royal Navy should have continued to exist - after all, Reed did not join such an organization. And the reason he quoted was the fear of water, which would keep him off the United Earth Seagoing Service, too.

Also, the RN existed during the past two generations of Reeds. AD 2150 could easily have marked the end of that organization, and all other national ones, without affecting the setup here one iota: Reed would already have made his choice back when the RN was a thing.

It has never been stated or implied that nations states stopped existing under a one world earth government (perhaps similar to the present day E.U).

And the opposite was never stated, either. But significantly, we see the UE government in action in ENT, while we never see national governments in any sort of action post 2150.

Earth would have its own defense force for the planet, Starfleet operates in space.

Sounds awfully artificial. Today, the Army has ships, the Air Force has armored surface vehicles, and the Navy has aircraft, exactly because geography matters very little in modern warfare.

Also, how to define "Earth"? Does it include the Moon or not? Mars or not? Earth Colony Two or not? If "Earth" is defended by interplanetary or interstellar means, then one might just as well skip that shit and hop directly to defending the Federation.

Doesn't mean there wouldn't be Starfleet people whose exclusive job it is to stay on Earth and defend that planet's surface. This just doesn't call for a separate command hierarchy, and indeed would suffer from having one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Sounds awfully artificial.

Its an artificial universe, whether its Earth defense force or the Sol defense force, which I doubt since Mars declared itself independent as per TOS Court Martial episode.

 

[Timo]

We don't know when Mars did that. Might be an outdated development by the time of 2150 already.

The bottom line is that past 2161, we have never seen either a local defense force or even a local police force that would be distinct from the UFP-wide Starfleet. (And past 2150, we have never seen either a national defense force or even a national police force that would be distinct from the UE-wide Starfleet or Military.)

Such things could exist unseen, but... Why speculate on that? It's like speculating that the NYDP in your average cop show has an unseen Village Police, or that the USAF in your average war movie has an unseen Virginia Air Force. Such speculation would call for an adjoining story, surely.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Such things could exist unseen, but... Why speculate on that?

Because what we see is an incomplete visual of the Star Trek universe. Based on your logic if its not on the tv show then it does not exist.

 

[Timo]

To a degree that's true - if green and three-eyed Klingons aren't mentioned, they are unlikely to exist. To a degree, it isn't - if Kirk's grandmother isn't mentioned, she's still likely to have existed.

Local armies are unlikely things in our reality. Grandparents are likely things in our reality. And Trek for its part is utterly devoid of things that would make local armies likely - after all, it's chock full of references to everything being done at the federal level.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Why speculate on that?

Enjoyment of exploring possibilities?

 

[Nyotarules]

Local armies are unlikely things in our reality.

National armies exist in our reality, alongside a UN peacekeeping force (a semi global army) and there is talk of an E.U army whether that means national armies will no longer exist no one knows yet. So the idea that when the Federation started all those planets that had hundreds if not thousands of years of a global planetary defence force, laid down there arms and gave everything to a human organisation called Starfleet is not likely in universe. Try getting the Vulcans to agree to that!

 

[Timo]

National armies have zero tolerance for subnational ones, including ones much older than said nations. Why should the UFP army be different?

I mean, it could. But it isn't - surely we should see the Vulcans disagreeing if they were disagreeing.

In face of blatant absence of evidence, local armies sound unlikely. Star Trek is all about guns and soldiers and fighting, and of course sex, with a smidgen of space stuff thrown in. Local armies should be at the forefront of the drama. Yet they don't even appear on the deep background. Why not? What excuse do they have for their cowardice in times of war?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the Constitution forbids creating a new state from a piece of another.

Incorrect. A new state can be carved out of an existing one, with the approval of the existing state's legislature (and of the US Congress). It's all spelled out in Article IV, Section 3 of the US Constitution:

New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

 

[Albertese]

National armies have zero tolerance for subnational ones, including ones much older than said nations. Why should the UFP army be different?

....
Timo Saloniemi

Tell that to the United States in 1860. There very much was an Army of Virginia in those days. Armies on the state level was one of the factors that allowed the Civil War to happen the way it did.

Regarding making a new state out of real estate previously owned by another, check out West Virginia, which separated from Virginia thanks to the Civil War.

Also a what-might-have-been scenario: the state of Jefferson. There was a big movement in southern Oregon and northern California to separate several counties into a new state called Jefferson. This was a big deal in 1941, but everyone got distracted thanks to WWII. This movement keeps cropping up from time to time, even these days.

--Alex

 

[Tallguy]

Tell that to the United States in 1860. There very much was an Army of Virginia in those days. Armies on the state level was one of the factors that allowed the Civil War to happen the way it did.

Regarding making a new state out of real estate previously owned by another, check out West Virginia, which separated from Virginia thanks to the Civil War.

Also a what-might-have-been scenario: the state of Jefferson. There was a big movement in southern Oregon and northern California to separate several counties into a new state called Jefferson. This was a big deal in 1941, but everyone got distracted thanks to WWII. This movement keeps cropping up from time to time, even these days.

--Alex

I just discovered that Maine used to be part of Massachusetts!

 

[Tenacity]

Incorrect.

Very well, but the other points stand. The residents of DC could be given the ability to vote in Federal elections without DC becoming a state, and outside of DC there no pressing desire for DC to become a state.

National armies have zero tolerance for subnational ones

Which would be relevant only if the Federation were a nation, instead of a alliance of nations. The Federation's exact form is questionable and open to interpretation

after all, it's chock full of references to everything being done at the federal level

Which is why the Vulcans have their own intelligence service, and have embassies with nations outside the Federation, and have their own defense starships.

..

 

[Longinus]

The real reason why separate planetary defence forces, police forces or even governments are rarely seen in Trek is the need to keep the story simple enough for casual viewers to follow and the budgetary reasons (extra uniforms for one scene showing United Earth Constables is expensive.) Apparently 'Paradise Lost' was supposed to involve separate Earth government, but it was deemed too confusing.

In any case, I see UFP to be most analogous to EU, with the addition of separate federal level (space) navy.

 

[Timo]

Which is why the Vulcans have their own intelligence service, and have embassies with nations outside the Federation, and have their own defense starships.

Corporations have their own intelligence services - governments may actually deny having those. Embassies or at least Ambassadors are the way UFP members interact with each other, so their role is rather alien; whether UPF members can exercise independent foreign policy is unknown, and every instance of such can be countered by "they aren't actually known to be members".

Vulcans have their own defense starships? Since when?

DS9 had its own defense starship (or more like offense starship, as it had no defensive value evident). It was under somewhat sovereign command of DS9, too. Doesn't mean that DS9 had its own Starfleet separate from the main one, or that Sisko could have naysayed if his boss took the ship away and gave it to Commander Tesco or Agent Brasco or USO Impressario Disco to play with.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nyotarules]

Star Trek is all about guns and soldiers and fighting, and of course sex, with a smidgen of space stuff thrown in. Local armies should be at the forefront of the drama. Yet they don't even appear on the deep background. Why not? What excuse do they have for their cowardice in times of war?

Star trek is about life in space not life on Federation planets.

 

[Timo]

But there's always pew-pew in space. If Andorians have a military of their own, why does it stay out of the Dominion War? If Vulcans have warships of their own, why do we only see them flying generic Starfleet ones? And if it's too difficult to tell the difference, how is it a difference?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

But there's always pew-pew in space. If Andorians have a military of their own, why does it stay out of the Dominion War?

Presumably, like the Bajoran Militia post Unity (DS9 novel) is legally restricted to operating within Andorian space unless transferred to Starfleet authority (cf US NG units that come under Army or AF control overseas) and therefore haven't been seen. Although there are references to Andorian Homeworld Security and also various local police forces seperate from Starfleet in TrekLit.

Potentially, any starships they had access to (apart from the brief period of independence) would be sub-light or low-warp short-to-medium range "patrol boat" or corvette rather than long range, multirole vessels capable of being used as warships during the Dominion War.

 

[Longinus]

But there's always pew-pew in space. If Andorians have a military of their own, why does it stay out of the Dominion War? If Vulcans have warships of their own, why do we only see them flying generic Starfleet ones? And if it's too difficult to tell the difference, how is it a difference?

Their military would probably be some sort of planetary defence force & coast guard. Starfleet probably handles most of the real military style space navy stuff, that's their job.

Furthermore, this probably differs depending on the time period. The Federation comes more integrated and the Starfleet more powerful and overarching as the time goes one.

 

[Timo]

I'm fine with the Blue Fleet in a pre-TOS or perhaps even TOS setting. When we see a big war up close in DS9, though, the absence of these species-specific forces just doesn't work: if they're supposed to amount to anything at all, they should be statistically significant enough to show up at least a couple of times, unless they are so indistinguishable from Starfleet proper that they are Starfleet proper.

DSC sits on an interesting fence. Not much in TOS was stated to be brand spanking new, but OTOH a Star Trek show was being written for the very first time and so many things did, unintentionally, have the appearance of being new. It's fine for Starfleet in the 2250s to believe in the beneficial effect of long prison terms even if in the 2260s they are all hot and bothered about brainwashing and politically opposed to punishment of any sort. It's likewise fine for Starfleet to be divided in four or sixteen or whatever even if later on Kirk and Spock can work as brothers.

Past TOS, though, things begin to be set in stone, or at least more quick-drying cement than back in the 1960s... There's much less room for an Andorian Self-Defense Force there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Past TOS, though, things begin to be set in stone, or at least more quick-drying cement than back in the 1960s... There's much less room for an Andorian Self-Defense Force there.

But not definately proven as we never visit Andor in onscreen canon, after ENT so the (mostly) TrekLit concept of internal security forces for most member planets, United Earth Police & Terrestrial Defense Division [Earth], Andorian Homeworld Security (Andor), Planetary Security (Delta IV), Peace Keepers (Betazed), Bajoran Militia (Bajor) and the V'Shar and the Vulcan Expeditionary Group (Vulcan).