Seriously, they sent one guy in one ship to SAVE THE GALAXY? I'm still trying to get past that. What if he'd had a heart attack on the way?
Did Spock save Romulus after all?
- Thread starter T'Girl
- Start date
Exactly.
Now, saving Romulus by such means would be plausible: it might be that very few beyond Spock wanted to see that planet saved. Only Spock would see the seeds of galactic disaster in the fact that the homestar of Romulus and Remus hiccuped and devoured these interstellar annoyances...
If the rescue operation did run short of time, and only one ship could be sent, surely that ship would have a crew of at least three. It could arguably have been a suicide mission, but only humans would think in terms of "the old geezer's gonna die soon anyway, let him do it alone". Vulcans would so send three suicide volunteers: the experienced elder, the able-bodied youngster, and the big-busted bimbo just in case they ran into some ancient curse which no man could vanquish.
Timo Saloniemi
Now, saving Romulus by such means would be plausible: it might be that very few beyond Spock wanted to see that planet saved. Only Spock would see the seeds of galactic disaster in the fact that the homestar of Romulus and Remus hiccuped and devoured these interstellar annoyances...
If the rescue operation did run short of time, and only one ship could be sent, surely that ship would have a crew of at least three. It could arguably have been a suicide mission, but only humans would think in terms of "the old geezer's gonna die soon anyway, let him do it alone". Vulcans would so send three suicide volunteers: the experienced elder, the able-bodied youngster, and the big-busted bimbo just in case they ran into some ancient curse which no man could vanquish.
Timo Saloniemi
He's a Vulcan, he can take it. Sarek didn't bat an eyelid until his third heart attack, and then he went and lived another hundred years!
Seriously, it was implied that a lot went on that we weren't told about. For me, that's cool. Others, not so much.
If we got a flashback in the middle of the movie to the finale of First Contact, showing Data with half his face humanized and Picard killing the Borg queen in the 21st century while an old man rides a missile into warp speed you'd all have a seriously hard time coping. People would say "Why don't Picard and Data have a sqaud of security with them on this mission?" and "Why is a woman ruling the hive-minded Borg?" and so forth - but taken in the context of the movie itself these things are explained/make sense just fine.
Ditto Spock's mission.
I see two reasons for "One Man saving the Galaxy" (note: Others were more than likely involved)
1.) Spock is one of the greatest Scientific Minds in the Galaxy, he was likely deeply involved in the development of the Red Matter, Jellyfish and the overall plan
2.) As an Ambassador, with the intent to re-unify Vulcan and Romulus, Spock saw this as an ideal opportunity to gain support, by volunteering to risk his own life to save Romulus, he would indeed gain wide support from Romulan people of influence
As for it being one man, its likely the Federation would have had backups in case Spock fail, it just so happened that he had the means to stop the Supernova first...heck if you read Star Trek Countdown (non-canon I know, but interesting all the same) the Vulcans had the ability to save Romulus but chose not to, IIRC the Federation offered to evacuate the Planet and Spock went against the Vulcan Councils wishes by conspiring with Geordi, Picard, etc to build the Jellyfish and stop the Supernova before it hit Romulus
1.) Spock is one of the greatest Scientific Minds in the Galaxy, he was likely deeply involved in the development of the Red Matter, Jellyfish and the overall plan
2.) As an Ambassador, with the intent to re-unify Vulcan and Romulus, Spock saw this as an ideal opportunity to gain support, by volunteering to risk his own life to save Romulus, he would indeed gain wide support from Romulan people of influence
As for it being one man, its likely the Federation would have had backups in case Spock fail, it just so happened that he had the means to stop the Supernova first...heck if you read Star Trek Countdown (non-canon I know, but interesting all the same) the Vulcans had the ability to save Romulus but chose not to, IIRC the Federation offered to evacuate the Planet and Spock went against the Vulcan Councils wishes by conspiring with Geordi, Picard, etc to build the Jellyfish and stop the Supernova before it hit Romulus
A backup plan doesn't sound plausible when Spock himself says he only had a very short time to act - after Romulus was destroyed!
If there was the risk of further carnage, and Spock had to stop that, too, all by himself and only had a few minutes or seconds for it, any "backup" would have been hopelessly late.
If, OTOH, the backup plans were fine for stopping further carnage but unsuited for saving Romulus, then they could plausibly exist in parallel with Spock's mission - but Spock should have been in no hurry to continue his fumbling with red matter. He should have returned to Vulcan and let the backup plan be executed.
In scifi, the third hand is never to be forgotten, of course. Perhaps Spock was in a hurry even after Romulus was gone and even though backup plans were in motion because his attempt to use red matter had placed himself in personal danger? That is, perhaps arming the red matter device had started a ticking clock, and Spock had to dump the red matter somewhere in a hurry or be consumed by an explosion or a black hole? But that doesn't work very well. Spock claimed he only prepared the red matter after Romulus was gone, and he didn't evade the resulting black hole.
Really, the idea that this was a relatively minor calamity, a personal quest for Spock, and a mission that (according to everybody else but Spock) could afford to fail, and good riddance to the Romulans, fits the evidence much better.
Timo Saloniemi
If there was the risk of further carnage, and Spock had to stop that, too, all by himself and only had a few minutes or seconds for it, any "backup" would have been hopelessly late.
If, OTOH, the backup plans were fine for stopping further carnage but unsuited for saving Romulus, then they could plausibly exist in parallel with Spock's mission - but Spock should have been in no hurry to continue his fumbling with red matter. He should have returned to Vulcan and let the backup plan be executed.
In scifi, the third hand is never to be forgotten, of course. Perhaps Spock was in a hurry even after Romulus was gone and even though backup plans were in motion because his attempt to use red matter had placed himself in personal danger? That is, perhaps arming the red matter device had started a ticking clock, and Spock had to dump the red matter somewhere in a hurry or be consumed by an explosion or a black hole? But that doesn't work very well. Spock claimed he only prepared the red matter after Romulus was gone, and he didn't evade the resulting black hole.
Really, the idea that this was a relatively minor calamity, a personal quest for Spock, and a mission that (according to everybody else but Spock) could afford to fail, and good riddance to the Romulans, fits the evidence much better.
Timo Saloniemi
I wasn't debating the difficulty of handling a galactic invasion or space ameoba rather than your original comment that such galactic threats were outside the scope of Trek plots. Since we did have Galactic Threats during TOS (no less than 3 times) it would seem that at least during TOS it was not outside the scope of Trek plots
As to the "gods" aka "advanced/evolved beings" cleaning up - sure, it could happen but from a story point the heroes must be involved if it is happening to the Federation or to their ship. Otherwise, it's the "if an advanced being stops a galactic catastrophe without our heroes knowing of it, would they know or care?" type scenario
So why didn't he? Stop it before it destroyed Romulus I mean.
The largest difference would be clear-cut fiction vs. established science. You don't make a fantasy movie and then tell people that up is down because it's fantasy. The difference it would have made is that people who honestly understand the most basic of mechanics about a supernova aren't going to roll their eyes over it. Small difference, I know.
I think the fact needs to be faced on this issue that it really wasn't that carefully thought out, and it probably didn't need to be. These writers have an established history of just wanting to get their characters from A to B without good reason.
Also, shouldn't this be in the XI+ forum?
Well theres two reasons, one canonical the other non canonical, but tbh, I think the non-canonical one is much better suited for fans of the show, prior to the movie
1.) In Star Trek XI, Spock simply says he was too late, he made an error and arrived to late to do anything about it
2.) In Star Trek: Countdown, its revealed that the Vulcan Council weren't happy about helping Romulus and therefore this delayed Spock getting the resources he needed together, therefore he arrived too late to save Romulus
Spock never quite admits to an "error".
Instead, he says that the destruction of Romulus before his arrival was an "unthinkable" event. Since Spock doesn't shy away from thinking difficult thoughts, we might just as well accept that "unthinkable" is the synonym of "something I didn't think of as possible". So, what didn't he think was possible? That Romulus would be lost? Naah, he was engaged in an operation that addressed this very possibility. That he'd be late? He must have considered that possibility as well - it wouldn't be unthinkable at all. That Romulus would be lost so soon? Now this one sounds more likely.
Perhaps the wave of destruction moved faster than he thought. But that's somewhat silly - odds are, he could see how fast it moved. Yet the events only became "unthinkable" when Romulus was lost, not hours or days before when the speed of the wave would have been established if it came from far away, from a star that had already exploded.
More probably, the star exploded sooner than he thought... After his departure from Vulcan, but before his arrival at Romulus.
Timo Saloniemi
They simply made the mistake of calling it a Supernova and then let it do stuff that a supernova simply doesn't do. Threatens the entire galaxy. Bullshit. The Hobus star not being in the Romulan star system*. A supernova shockwave travels at ~2-10% the speed of light. It would take a LONG time to get from one solar system to the other. Then the bull of sucking up the supernova with a black hole. WTF. First of all, what did he want to suck up, the blast, or the supernova remnant (which IS a black hole, or a dense neutron star)? Neither of which poses a threat at all to the rest of the galaxy. And to vacu-suck up the shockwave... 
And to create a black hole in front of Romulus to prevent it from getting hit by the blast... uhm, err, just no.
What annoys me the most about it is when Roberto Orci claims his script is scientifically accurate.
*granted, I think that Hobus star thing is only in the comics, right? But if it was in fact the Romulan sun turning into a supernova... let's just say that you simply cannot be surprised by a supernova. And if they didn't evacuate the planet then Nero was rightfully the representative of a civilization of very dumb people.
And to create a black hole in front of Romulus to prevent it from getting hit by the blast... uhm, err, just no.
What annoys me the most about it is when Roberto Orci claims his script is scientifically accurate.
*granted, I think that Hobus star thing is only in the comics, right? But if it was in fact the Romulan sun turning into a supernova... let's just say that you simply cannot be surprised by a supernova. And if they didn't evacuate the planet then Nero was rightfully the representative of a civilization of very dumb people.
I don't agree. Surely a supernova will come as a surprise, because the timescales involved in its final detonation are very short, only hours, minutes or even seconds - whereas the buildup to the detonation will take thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of years. Romulans would hardly evacuate their planet just because the star shows signs of possible instability within the next few thousand years. After all, they had chosen that star for their new home mere thousands of years before, accepting its state (which we might argue was that of a pre-supernova).
Perhaps the Romulans always believed they would return to Vulcan very soon, and wouldn't need a particularly stable system for their brief exile?
And what we saw of the destruction of Romulus in the movie would be more or less consistent with this, I guess.
To be sure, Spock wanted to stop the supernova by using red matter. We don't quite know if he really wanted this to result in the creation of a black hole, let alone a large and stable black hole that had so much gravitic pull it could affect the flight paths of starships. Perhaps the black hole was the result of a mistake in the calculations?
One might argue, though, that having a black hole next to the planet would be better than having a supernova next to the planet. More time to evacuate, at least...
Timo Saloniemi
You know the mass, you know in which phase the star currently is, and you know how long each phase takes. It only gets too late if you wait for the moment you can tell that it is already burning silicon to iron, because that phase lasts only a couple of hours.
You already have time to evacuate because you can tell if a star is going nova or not. In the movie nobody was surprised by the supernova. Spock and the Vulcan Science Council knew. Makes no sense to buy time with a black hole because they already had enough time.
But one cannot run in a couple of hours. At that point, one is already surprised.
For the drama, it would suffice for the star to have cycled through the faster stages in a matter of a few hours, when the Romulans were expecting for the slower stages to still continue for a few hundred years at least, giving them plenty of time to debate and obfuscate.
A trip of a few hours from Vulcan to Romulus (rather consistent with what's been seen in earlier Trek, and not impossible by the rules of the movie itself, either) might well see the situation develop in a manner that surprises both the Romulans (who were wishfully thinking they still had centuries or millennia) and Spock (who knew he had mere hours, but didn't know how many).
A final series of fusion events that takes only a few hours is by no means impossible for a Type 1a supernova, apparently. And here we would be discussing some sort of an atypical supernova, one that could take even the all-knowing Spock by surprise; certainly the Trek universe has room for such a minor variation from our current (and by no means exhaustive) knowledge of star/supernova types.
Timo Saloniemi
For the drama, it would suffice for the star to have cycled through the faster stages in a matter of a few hours, when the Romulans were expecting for the slower stages to still continue for a few hundred years at least, giving them plenty of time to debate and obfuscate.
A trip of a few hours from Vulcan to Romulus (rather consistent with what's been seen in earlier Trek, and not impossible by the rules of the movie itself, either) might well see the situation develop in a manner that surprises both the Romulans (who were wishfully thinking they still had centuries or millennia) and Spock (who knew he had mere hours, but didn't know how many).
A final series of fusion events that takes only a few hours is by no means impossible for a Type 1a supernova, apparently. And here we would be discussing some sort of an atypical supernova, one that could take even the all-knowing Spock by surprise; certainly the Trek universe has room for such a minor variation from our current (and by no means exhaustive) knowledge of star/supernova types.
Timo Saloniemi
^That's what The Needs of the Many and Star Trek Online say. They say it was a type 1c supernova with FTL properties 500 light years from Eisn/Romulan system that the Federation still doesn't understand 30+ years later. It left a very pretty nebula.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
A supernova that explodes unpredictably and has a blast wave that travels FTL? It has almost nothing in common with a natural supernova, beyond being a star that explodes.
It's a safe bet that this superova was artificially caused.
By whom?
There are many suspects - klingons, federation (section 31), etc. Romulans are very good at making enemies.
But the more interesting posibility is none of the above - but rather a new player, in response to circumstances that appeared after the dominion war.
It's a safe bet that this superova was artificially caused.
By whom?
There are many suspects - klingons, federation (section 31), etc. Romulans are very good at making enemies.
But the more interesting posibility is none of the above - but rather a new player, in response to circumstances that appeared after the dominion war.
I agree it had to be a FTL supernova and possibly one helped along by technology but, given that it would send a radiation wave in all directions at FTL, it wouldn't just be Romulus and Remus that would be 'destroyed'. A large chunk of the Romulan, Klingon, and Federation territories must also have been destroyed by Spock's failure to stop it at source.
The other silly thing is that when we see Spock's mind meld (ok - it is representative I know) somehow he and Nero seem to avoid the multidirectional shockwave. How can he and Nero avoid the shockwave if they are in Romulan space, it is travelling at FTL speeds, and they are not travelling at warp (certainly not as the red matter is deployed). They manage not to be vaporised by the radiation despite being drawn into a gravity well which was intended to attract all the radiation into it. Why is the supernova dangerous enough to blow up the planet in the time it takes Spock to travel from Vulcan to Romulus but not dangerous enough to affect standard shields on a ship? I could see the wave stripping away a planet's atmosphere, making it uninhabitable, but outright destruction doesn't gel with the survival of the ships.
The other silly thing is that when we see Spock's mind meld (ok - it is representative I know) somehow he and Nero seem to avoid the multidirectional shockwave. How can he and Nero avoid the shockwave if they are in Romulan space, it is travelling at FTL speeds, and they are not travelling at warp (certainly not as the red matter is deployed). They manage not to be vaporised by the radiation despite being drawn into a gravity well which was intended to attract all the radiation into it. Why is the supernova dangerous enough to blow up the planet in the time it takes Spock to travel from Vulcan to Romulus but not dangerous enough to affect standard shields on a ship? I could see the wave stripping away a planet's atmosphere, making it uninhabitable, but outright destruction doesn't gel with the survival of the ships.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
Suns usually rotate around a central axis.
In the case of a supernove, this translates into the blast being far more powerful at the sun's ecuator than at its poles.
In essence, the propagating wavefront would describe a circle and not a sphere.
Also, beyond a certain distance, the energy of the blast will be spread out and can no longer destroy (or even seriously affect) worlds.
Which explains how Nero and Spock could approach the exploding Hobus star without being fried (they stayed clear of the blast's plane of propagation).
And it also implies that only a limited number of worlds were in the wavefront's path. The remaining ones' inhabitants are still suspect of blowing up the Hobus star and destroying Romulus.
In the case of a supernove, this translates into the blast being far more powerful at the sun's ecuator than at its poles.
In essence, the propagating wavefront would describe a circle and not a sphere.
Also, beyond a certain distance, the energy of the blast will be spread out and can no longer destroy (or even seriously affect) worlds.
Which explains how Nero and Spock could approach the exploding Hobus star without being fried (they stayed clear of the blast's plane of propagation).
And it also implies that only a limited number of worlds were in the wavefront's path. The remaining ones' inhabitants are still suspect of blowing up the Hobus star and destroying Romulus.
Ah coool, some interesting science! Doesn't seem likely that it could threaten the universe literally then, only local star systems in the way of its most powerful plane? statistically speaking it wouldn't be likely to hit many inhabited star systems then. Depending on the width of the plane, it wouldn't even be a certainty that Remus would be destroyed, albeit it atmosphere would suffer terribly and its inhabitants would be cooked.
Mind you, how could Spock hope to deploy the red matter if he wasn't close to the wave front?
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