Did Spock save Romulus after all?

[T'Girl]

That is where I'm from, Jim. The future.
The star went supernova, consuming everything in its path.
I promised the Romulans that I would save their planet...
We outfitted our fastest ship.
Using red matter, I would create a black hole, which would absorb the exploding star.
I was en route, when the unthinkable happened.
The supernova destroyed Romulus. I had little time.
I had to extract the red matter, and shoot it into the supernova.
As I began my return trip, I was intercepted.

Originally what I thought Spock intended to do was to create a new black hole inbetween the supernova and the Romulas star system. The new black hole would shield only that one star system from the effects of the supernova. Like a umbrella or a eclipse. Other star systems within the supernova's range would be separate problems, but as other have noted, Spock was carrying a lot of red matter.

However, re-watching the scene last night has got me thinking. Spock would have known the propagation speed of the supernova's wave of destruction and that Romulus was going to be destroyed prior to his creating the new black hole. So while the planet's destruct was unthinkable, it was neither unavoidable, nor unexpected.

Spock knew he couldn't simply create a black hole immediately next to Romulus (obvious reasons), nor anywhere in the Romulus star system (same basic reasons).

So Spock's solution wasn't as I first though to create a black hole shield, and it would have done no good to use the new black hole to just "eat' the supernova after it's destructive force were radiating in all directions through the galaxy. With the wave of destruction already in the Romulus system barrowing down on the planet, just eliminating the supernova would no longer cut it.

The supernova destroyed Romulus. I had little time.

Little time left for what?
At that point what was the hurry?

I had to extract the red matter, and shoot it into the supernova.

Spock's solution was a temporal solution. It's clear that red matter had temporal qualities. I believe Spock's new black hole wouldn't just absorb the supernova itself, but also any effects of the supernova through time. The wave of destruction would never have existed and Romulus would never have been destroyed.

As I began my return trip, I was intercepted.

Spock was on a course returning to Romulus (to continue his work there). The planet had never been destroyed and it's entire populace (including Nero's wife) were alive and well.

That where Captain I have trouble thinking things through Nero intercepted Spock.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I took it to mean he had little time before it was too big for red matter to stop. It was said that this supernova would threaten the galaxy (as silly as that is). Romulus was the first to fall. He had to stop it before it destroyed everything.

 

[Crewman Wunline]

Spock intended to create a new black hole inbetween the supernova and the Romulas star system. The new black hole would shield only that one star system from the effects of the supernova. Like a umbrella or a eclipse. Other star systems within the supernova's range would be separate problems, but as other have noted, Spock was carrying a lot of red matter.

So Spock's solution wasn't as I first though to create a black hole shield, and it would have done no good to use the new black hole to just "eat' the supernova after it's destructive force were radiating in all directions through the galaxy. With the wave of destruction already in the Romulus system barrowing down on the planet, just eliminating the supernova would no longer cut it.

Spock's solution was a temporal solution. It's clear that red matter had temporal qualities. I believe Spock's new black hole wouldn't just absorb the supernova itself, but also any effects of the supernova through time. The wave of destruction would never have existed and Romulus would never have been destroyed.

That's a fine piece of analysis there, kiddo, and I think your conjecture is worthy, too. I hope it gets adopted into canon someday.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock was returning to Vulcan, which is where the Jellyfish (a Vulcan ship!) launched from. We even saw a clip of the Jellyfish being refitted on Vulcan.

Spock went from Romulus (where he promised to save them), to Vulcan (where the Jellyfish was outfitted with the Red Matter tech, to the supernova. Then he was intercepted by Nero before he could return to Vulcan.

Romulus was destroyed.

(btw, the novel The Needs of the Many has loads of technobabble about the Hobus supernova. It says the threat to the galaxy was a massive radiation front)

 

[Timo]

Spock would have known the propagation speed of the supernova's wave of destruction and that Romulus was going to be destroyed prior to his creating the new black hole. So while the planet's destruct was unthinkable, it was neither unavoidable, nor unexpected.

One obvious way around this is that Spock had no wave to observe. Instead, the star had not even exploded yet when Spock set out to execute his plan - which consisted of using red matter and black holes to keep a supernova from exploding. The plan would make sense originally, but the too early explosion would result in the destruction of Romulus. Spock's timely action would stop the star from destroying further planets in the Romulan system or the Romulan Star Empire, though, thereby averting a disaster of galactic scope.

Equating "unthinkable" with "unexpected" would certainly be warranted here. If Spock was counting on Romulus dying before he could reach the firing position, there'd be nothing "unthinkable" about it, especially not if Spock's action would soon negate all the destruction.

btw, the novel The Needs of the Many has loads of technobabble about the Hobus supernova. It says the threat to the galaxy was a massive radiation front

A regular supernova would suffice, as long as we don't unnecessarily start calling it a "Hobus supernova". There's no Hobus in the movie. Just "a star" that explodes and destroys Romulus. So probably their homesun, or Eisn as Diane Duane would put it. Surely the whole galaxy would tremble with the death of Romulus...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Yes, he saved Romulus. They have time to save it in the JJ timeline.

 

[Timo]

...But no red matter. Or at least, no planet Vulcan that would equip a starship with it.

I hope an alternate source exists...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Vulcan doesn't have to develop it.

Spock likely knows something about it, and Nero already deployed it once, and the Enterprise could've gotten a good scan in.

If someone wants to save Romulus, they've got about 120 years to work on red matter. That's probably not a problem.

 

[T'Girl]

this supernova would threaten the galaxy (as silly as that is)

I took Spock's words to mean a political threat to the galaxy.

People in Star Trek often would refer to their little few percentage points as "The Galaxy."

 

[F. King Daniel]

A regular supernova would suffice...

You're free to (re)interpret the movie as you wish, but Spock said "threaten to destroy the galaxy", and Spock does not use hyperbole. The licensed stuff (the novel, the comic, the online game) have come up with a story around it. Until "canon" says otherwise I'm happy with it.

The STXI supernova is no worse than the Praxis shockwave that somehow hit Excelsior from light-years away, or the absolute 100% pure magic that was the Genesis Device. Star Trek has had fantastical elements from day one.

 

[Mr Silver]

I would imagine the "Red Matter" was a discovery by the Federation, hence why the Romulans couldn't just Black Hole the Supernova themselves, they needed help from the Federation

 

[kkozoriz1]

Praxis caused a subspace shockwave and Genesis used protomatter, both parts of the finger-wavium book of science. The XI supernova had no such super-science explanation that we were told.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Praxis caused a subspace shockwave and Genesis used protomatter, both parts of the finger-wavium book of science. The XI supernova had no such super-science explanation that we were told.

"subspace shockwave" and "protomatter" are meaningless babytalk technobabble. They mean nothing. Had it been a "tri-fluxic neutino-wave" supernova it would have made no difference to the movie in any way whatsoever.

TWoK got by without any real science behind Genesis at all (beyond the vague "matter is reorganized" which somehow creates life). Even in STIII, with the words "protomatter" and "matrix" thrown around, it's magic. The same stuff seen in Shrek and Lord of the Rings.

 

[Timo]

There are a few problems with accepting that the STXI supernova would really have destroyed the entire galaxy.

For one thing, if such a threat did emerge, it's unlikely that Spock would be the one to take care of it. He simply wouldn't be allowed to. Threats like that are to be handled by gods, which the Trek universe has aplenty. Conversely, if gods didn't want to prevent the supernova destruction from happening, they would have snuffed Spock out as soon as his red matter odyssey began.

Another thing is that we actually saw the destruction of Romulus, and it happened so slowly that the "shockwave" involved would have taken hundreds or thousands of years to reach the next star over, let alone endanger stars outside the Romulan Star Empire. Spock couldn't have had "little time"; he would have had centuries to ponder his next move.

Spock saved Romulus, which is fine and well for a mortal. To suggest that he saved the galaxy is just plain silly - and if I can have my movie with a reduced degree of silliness, I will...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Praxis shockwave appeared to be moving at slower-than-light speeds, too - and I seriously doubt Sulu was flying in orbit of Praxis in the Klingon home system at the time .

Most of Trek's "gods" have the ability to move through time and space at will - therefore they always knew Spock would deal with the supernova before it got out of hand. The death of Romulus is nothing to the Q or the wormhole aliens. It's an ant hill destroyed by a forest fire.

As for Spock being the one to undertake the mission, he has helped save the galaxy from doomsday machines, space amoebas and Lazarus' bizarre antimatter thing in the past. He's helped save several worlds, including Earth. I'd rather have him on the mission than someone like Harry Kim!

 

[Timo]

The death of Romulus is nothing to the Q or the wormhole aliens. It's an ant hill destroyed by a forest fire.

Exactly. Which is why it would be fine for the movie to deal with a disaster of this scope. A disaster that threatens to destroy the entire galaxy, though... That's not within the scope of plausible Trek plots. It's way out of the league of our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

The death of Romulus is nothing to the Q or the wormhole aliens. It's an ant hill destroyed by a forest fire.

Exactly. Which is why it would be fine for the movie to deal with a disaster of this scope. A disaster that threatens to destroy the entire galaxy, though... That's not within the scope of plausible Trek plots. It's way out of the league of our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

In your opinion. I thought the film was pretty much Trek reimagined along the lines of a superhero movie, really pushing these people as legends in the making, rather than "just another starship crew" as seen in TOS. I thought the catalyst of the timeline reset being the biggest crisis in the history of the universe (and then barely touching upon it!) was somewhat inspired. The lack of information was deliberate, to get the imagination going (or the tie-in material selling ) and give the impression Prime Trek hasn't been idle since Nemesis.

Different tastes, and all that

 

[Timo]

Whatever the aims and goals of the new writers, I seriously hope they won't remove gods from the Trek equation. There's always the chance that they'd find it more alluring to populate the universe with nothing but 20th century humans in various styles of makeup, and think that they are paying homage to TOS. But diverse aliens were always part of TOS as well, and aliens with powers far in excess of the human ones were very important to that storytelling... There were mortal affairs, and then there were divine ones, and both had dramatic potential even when our heroes ended up being bested by the deities.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

The death of Romulus is nothing to the Q or the wormhole aliens. It's an ant hill destroyed by a forest fire.

Exactly. Which is why it would be fine for the movie to deal with a disaster of this scope. A disaster that threatens to destroy the entire galaxy, though... That's not within the scope of plausible Trek plots. It's way out of the league of our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

Surely you jest? "The Alternative Factor" was going to be a two universe destroying event. Or "By Any Other Name" where they prevent a future galactic invasion and "The Immunity Syndrome" where their timely intervention prevented the giant space amoeba from multiplying?

 

[Timo]

Galactic invasions are peanuts - the gods won't care who rules the galaxy, as long as there's somebody there for them to toy with. Galactic destruction is a completely different matter... The Q for one would no doubt be very, very annoyed by such an event. And we have ample proof that they can control supernovae...

And our heroes must have been delusional if they thought their role in "The Immunity Syndrome" was in any way crucial. Any Joe Schmoe could handle these amoebas, and obviously is already doing exactly that because there aren't more of them in evidence. Certainly not a job for gods, nor anything approaching a galactic crisis.

Super-supernovas that send waves of destruction... Now those are the perfect type of crisis for yer conventional god. Very physical, very impressive, and very slow so that the deity can take His or Her time coming up with a solution (while the mortals suffer), then implement it without split-second acts or time tampering (so the mortals can watch and comprehend and be suitably impressed). Although I doubt even the conventional gods would be let to act here; somebody a bit more advanced would probably step in and undo the event, not because it would care about mortals but because it has a soft spot for the more primitive gods.

"The Alternative Factor" was a bit different in that a conventional god would have hammed and hewed when drastic on-the-spot action was called for instead. But we can never tell if real destruction loomed around the corner, because we didn't take that corner. Perhaps the Lazari were wrong? Or perhaps the "sane" one was the tool of some higher force in making sure that His or Her precious sandbox would not be messed with.

Timo Saloniemi