Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

[DonIago]

I think one thing that's being lost in this argument is that it almost certainly wasn't the case that it was purely the Cardassians disregarding the cease-fire, and it seems to me to be a bit naive to assume it was.

It certainly works easier for tv and viewer sympathies for the Cardassians to be painted as the bad guys, but even before the Maquis were properly established it was clear that the Federation settlers were also engaging in acts of violence.

In any case, the colonies had agreed to continue to exist under Cardassian jurisdiction, which leads me back to my original thought of "What did you think was going to happen?" It's a shame we didn't see more about how things progressed for the Cardassian colonies that were transferred to the Federation's control.

 

[horatio83]

Indeed. The straightforward thing to do would have been to move with the border. Wanting to live under Cardassian rule is kinda masochistic.
About planets with a partly Cardassian population under Federation control, I guess there were initially normal tensions but I doubt that the Federation armed its settlers like the Cardassians did. Then again after the Maquis emerged it is easy to imagine that planetary governments start to mistreat the local Cardassian citizens.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Maquis should have left the colonies. It's the 24th century in Trek, re-settling elsewhere in the Federation should be easy.

You do realize that we are talking about multiple planets with no idea how many people are actually living there so moving them could require a large amount of ships which have to come from somewhere (hell it took Picard a few weeks to just get evacuation ships to move a small colony descended from crash survivors so who knows how long bigger colonies would take), then there is the question of where to put all the refugees I mean it not like the federation has an infinite amount of planets hence why the planets being ceded were colonized in the first place, (again Picard and his crew spent time looking for a new planet for the guys from Homeward so it's not exactly a cake walk). Which is another problem with the treaty.

Seriously when do people not realize that a planetary evacuation isn't some minor project and is in fact a major undertaking. It's a freaking planet not a small town.

so "it'll take some time" is a strong argument against doing it?

You must have missed the part where I said

then there is the question of where to put all the refugees I mean it not like the federation has an infinite amount of planets hence why the planets being ceded were colonized in the first place, (again Picard and his crew spent time looking for a new planet for the guys from Homeward so it's not exactly a cake walk). Which is another problem with the treaty.

Yeah the time and resources spent moving people isn't the only problem there.

 

[sonak]

You do realize that we are talking about multiple planets with no idea how many people are actually living there so moving them could require a large amount of ships which have to come from somewhere (hell it took Picard a few weeks to just get evacuation ships to move a small colony descended from crash survivors so who knows how long bigger colonies would take), then there is the question of where to put all the refugees I mean it not like the federation has an infinite amount of planets hence why the planets being ceded were colonized in the first place, (again Picard and his crew spent time looking for a new planet for the guys from Homeward so it's not exactly a cake walk). Which is another problem with the treaty.

Seriously when do people not realize that a planetary evacuation isn't some minor project and is in fact a major undertaking. It's a freaking planet not a small town.

so "it'll take some time" is a strong argument against doing it?

You must have missed the part where I said

then there is the question of where to put all the refugees I mean it not like the federation has an infinite amount of planets hence why the planets being ceded were colonized in the first place, (again Picard and his crew spent time looking for a new planet for the guys from Homeward so it's not exactly a cake walk). Which is another problem with the treaty.

Yeah the time and resources spent moving people isn't the only problem there.

it didn't seem from the episodes that this was a particular sticking point. There's been NO indication that the UFP has an "over-population" or "over-crowding" problem.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

so "it'll take some time" is a strong argument against doing it?

You must have missed the part where I said

then there is the question of where to put all the refugees I mean it not like the federation has an infinite amount of planets hence why the planets being ceded were colonized in the first place, (again Picard and his crew spent time looking for a new planet for the guys from Homeward so it's not exactly a cake walk). Which is another problem with the treaty.

Yeah the time and resources spent moving people isn't the only problem there.

it didn't seem from the episodes that this was a particular sticking point. There's been NO indication that the UFP has an "over-population" or "over-crowding" problem.

Well except in Wrath of Khan from the Genesis proposal, Plus the fact that over population might not have been a problem until you had who knows how many refugees landing on planets in the federation increasing their population.

 

[horatio83]

There are no Coruscants in the Federation and the notion of an exploding populations that needs space is not supported by the real world experience of stagnating populations in rich countries. On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.
In short, colonists do not go the border because of economic reasons. They like the challenge.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.

It has a population in the billions by First Contact.

And the casualties from World War III were in the 100 millions so it didn't kill the majority of the population.

 

[horatio83]

My mistake. I nonetheless doubt that Trek's fictional Earth made this enormous progress in the second half of the 21st century while its population exploded like it does nowadays.
Population growth, resource shortages and climate change are the main, interconnected problems for our species in this century.

Lets shortly delve into demographics. People propagate massively mainly for economic reasons, children can work on the fields and care for you when you are old. The first cause vanishes once a country industrializes and the ration of people employed in the primary sectors decreases sharply. The second vanishes when there is a public pension system or when lifespans expand and people privately save for old age.
In short, if everybody is moderately well off on United Earth the population should stagnate or decline.

Then again Trek has indeed implied, mainly in TOS, that humankind spreads for economic reasons. The wheat in Trouble with Tribbles, miners and so on. This became irrelevant in the 24th century due to replicators and it was never implied that there are land shortages (like when the Europeans settled the Americas). As you pointed out, there are no Starfleet ships designed for the transport of a large number of people.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.

It has a population in the billions by First Contact.

And the casualties from World War III were in the 100 millions so it didn't kill the majority of the population.

For the first note:

Data: Population 9 billion, all borg.

That indicates the population with the Borg in full control, in a timeline where no wars post World War III took place, beyond replaced drones. This does not affect the normal/restored timeline population.

For the World War III reference:

I think Riker said something about 100 Million dead from World War III, and there was no indication as to the pre-war total population levels.

This means we have no way to tell how devastation WW III is, or how much an increase in population took place between 2063 and the mid-late 24th Century.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

One aspect's of Earth's improvement post WW III is a factor not seen prior: Influence on technology, medicine, philosophy etc. by the Vulcans.

Even holding back on key knowledge and technology (ala Enterprise), Vulcan interactions with Earth would likely play a large part in the eradication of hunger and war on Eaerth within 50 years (per Deana Troi).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think Riker said something about 100 Million dead from World War III

600 million.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

On Earth there was furthermore a nasty nuclear war and I doubt that the population size is larger than today. It is probably smaller.

It has a population in the billions by First Contact.

And the casualties from World War III were in the 100 millions so it didn't kill the majority of the population.

For the first note:

Data: Population 9 billion, all borg.

That indicates the population with the Borg in full control, in a timeline where no wars post World War III took place, beyond replaced drones. This does not affect the normal/restored timeline population.

Funny, the movie seemed to imply there weren't really any wars after World War III in the regular timeline.

Also 9 billion is still in the billions.

And Riker didn't seem suprised at the 9 billion population count, whereas he was suprised about them being Borg. so I tend to think Earth had a high population.

 

[CaptainStoner]

One aspect's of Earth's improvement post WW III is a factor not seen prior: Influence on technology, medicine, philosophy etc. by the Vulcans.

Even holding back on key knowledge and technology (ala Enterprise), Vulcan interactions with Earth would likely play a large part in the eradication of hunger and war on Eaerth within 50 years (per Deana Troi).

Vulcans pulled Earth out of the shitter

 

[horatio83]

As OneBuck indicated, the held back warp technology while the planet was united so it is doubtful that they helped much with ending hunger or war.

 

[cheesepuff316]

I think they could do both - save the Ba'ku and get the Meds
Surely the Ba'ku don't take up the entire planet... therefore, Starfleet could establish a Medical facility on the other side of the planet so that sick people could stay for a month or two to regenerate??

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I think they could do both - save the Ba'ku and get the Meds
Surely the Ba'ku don't take up the entire planet... therefore, Starfleet could establish a Medical facility on the other side of the planet so that sick people could stay for a month or two to regenerate??

But, see that involves the Federation actually talking to the natives and actually questioning the assumption that they give a f@#k about what people on the other side of the planet do and not forgetting that federation medical technology could probably keep the Son'a alive long enough for the rings to affect them.

 

[sonak]

I think they could do both - save the Ba'ku and get the Meds
Surely the Ba'ku don't take up the entire planet... therefore, Starfleet could establish a Medical facility on the other side of the planet so that sick people could stay for a month or two to regenerate??

But, see that involves the Federation actually talking to the natives and actually questioning the assumption that they give a f@#k about what people on the other side of the planet do and not forgetting that federation medical technology could probably keep the Son'a alive long enough for the rings to affect them.

except that the movie explicitly contradicted that with regards to the Son'a.

 

[T'Girl]

Funny, the movie seemed to imply there weren't really any wars after World War III in the regular timeline.

Not exactly, Deanna said that war (among other thing) were going to be gone in a half century. Plus one of Captain Archer's stories involved a ancestor fighting a ground war in Africa likely in the late 21st or early 22nd century (the story about the school being in the line of fire).

 

[Charles Phipps]

I used to think he made a mistake but it occurs to me this is a slippery-slope as while I might be okay with the Federation stealing medicine, I'm not okay with them stealing dilithium--which would be something they could justify with the exact same set of rules.

How much different is the Baku from Avatar?

For me, I think the Federation should probably just stick with analyzing the magic cloud--and maybe asking if they could use another continent as a hospital.

 

[Belz...]

The Baku were not a sympathetic species at all. Their level of self-entitlement is just staggering. They all but declare their immortality is more important than anyone else, including the Son'a.

I didn't get that from watching the movie. Didn't they just want to be left alone ?