Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

[Hartzilla2007]

The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation.

Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

 

[sonak]

The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation.

Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The shooting Data bit for finding the holoship is a bit ambiguous as we never actually saw the events that occurred. If I had to guess it was because Data declared he was going to reveal it to everyone and compromise the whole operation.

Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping

here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

 

[OneBuckFilms]

"interfering with a governmental or political function"

It is userping the function of the Baku government, for one.

"kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective."

This is EXACTLY what the Son'a are doing, only en masse.

If it applies to the singular, then it applies en masse to the plural. Otherwise, kidnapping charges can be skipped if more than one person is taken.

 

[sonak]

Yeah becuase kidnapping people in their sleep is so noble

relocating, not kidnapping

here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

1. They had lawful authority (the UFP was the legal and recognized government of that territory)

2. the objective wasn't nefarious

 

[Hartzilla2007]

relocating, not kidnapping

here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

Generally, kidnapping occurs when a person, without lawful authority, physically asports (i.e., moves) another person without that other person's consent, with the intent to use the abduction in connection with some other nefarious objective. Under the Model Penal Code (a set of exemplary criminal rules fashioned by the American Law Institute), kidnapping occurs when any person is unlawfully and non-consensually asported and held for certain purposes. These purposes include gaining a ransom or reward; facilitating the commission of a felony or a flight after the commission of a felony; terrorizing or inflicting bodily injury on the victim or a third person; and interfering with a governmental or political function (Model Penal Code § 212.1).

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

1. They had lawful authority (the UFP was the legal and recognized government of that territory)

The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century, and they never joined the federation. So no they don't have legal authority over the Ba'ku.

2. the objective wasn't nefarious

Their objective was to render the planet uninhabitable becuase they don't want to get old. Yeah kind of sounds like it is.

 

[T'Girl]

The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century ...

What claim?

At no point in the movie did the Baku ever claim the planet, or express anything verbally that could be taken as indicating they feel they "owned" it.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century ...

What claim?

At no point in the movie did the Baku ever claim the planet, or express anything verbally that could be taken as indicating they feel they "owned" it.

Neither did any of the Federation colonies (some of whom have smaller populations than the Ba'ku) shown over the years and yet Starfleet seemed to treat those places like federation territory.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century ...

What claim?

At no point in the movie did the Baku ever claim the planet, or express anything verbally that could be taken as indicating they feel they "owned" it.

They referred to it as their home many times.

They were living there as the sole occupants for a significant period of time (nothing specific, but seemlingly hundreds of years).

To whom would they file their claim? Does the Federation or Starfleet, or whatever empire etc., around have a formal system of some kind?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

They were living there as the sole occupants for a significant period of time (nothing specific, but seemlingly hundreds of years).

Actually they said the first arrived on the planet 300 years before the film took place. Which again I stress means they lived their before there was a United Federation of Planets.

 

[DonIago]

At this point I think the movie would have been more entertaining if it turned out the Baku had exterminated another race in order to claim the planet for themselves.

 

[sonak]

here's the legal definition

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/kidnapping

Here is the relevant part

So explain to me how it isn't kidnapping?

1. They had lawful authority (the UFP was the legal and recognized government of that territory)

The Ba'ku claim predates the existence of the federation by a century, and they never joined the federation. So no they don't have legal authority over the Ba'ku.

2. the objective wasn't nefarious

Their objective was to render the planet uninhabitable becuase they don't want to get old. Yeah kind of sounds like it is.

the Baku don't want to get old either, that's why they stayed there.

Still, none of this premise makes sense. The Son'a have as much right to the planet as the Baku-why didn't they just tell the UFP that they have a claim on the planet, and that THEY'RE fine with using the particle-collecting procedure?

Whatever, the premise falls apart if you think about it for one minute.

600 pacifists kick a bunch of rebels OFF OF AN ENTIRE PLANET.

 

[T'Girl]

Son'a ... why didn't they just tell the UFP that they have a claim on the planet

Because their hold on the entire planet and the rings was just as thin as the Baku. The Federation's legal possession of the area wasn't in dispute, which is why the Sona brought the Federation in to the arrangement.

If the Sona felt that they had a clear and legal claim to the planet, one that the Federation wouldn't contend later, they would have simply moved the Baku out without ceremony, and harvested the rings.

Problem with that would be the Federation did see the region as theirs.

 

[sonak]

Son'a ... why didn't they just tell the UFP that they have a claim on the planet

Because their hold on the entire planet and the rings was just as thin as the Baku. The Federation's legal possession of the area wasn't in dispute, which is why the Sona brought the Federation in to the arrangement.

If the Sona felt that they had a clear and legal claim to the planet, one that the Federation wouldn't contend later, they would have simply moved the Baku out without ceremony, and harvested the rings.

Problem with that would be the Federation did see the region as theirs.

well then again, the Baku lose either way, whether it's Federation territory, or because the Son'a have a claim on it.

 

[T'Girl]

Actually they said the first arrived on the planet 300 years before the film took place. Which again I stress means they lived their before there was a United Federation of Planets.

When the United State acquired the Louisiana territory, it included the city of New Orleans.

This was in the year 1803.

Likely there were people in New Orleans who had lived in the city prior to the formation of the United States some 27 years before.

In 1803 New Orleans became part of the United States.

You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation. "They were there first." doesn't preclude the planet the Baku are living on becoming a part of the Federation at some point after they arrived.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation.

I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.

 

[BillJ]

But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.

I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.

I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.

United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation.

I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.

You forgot one option: the future member species of the federation bring into the federation the territory they previously had.

In this case - the planet the baku were settling belonged to a future member of the federation.
All other options you mentioned are excluded - the federation does not claim already inhabited planetary systems.

Which means - the baku are tresspassers.

But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.

I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.

United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.

As it turns out, when it comes to eminent domain, the federation = every liberal democracy on Earth.

BTW, the liberal democracies have eminent domain not because it sounds cool. But because it generates far less suffering/underdevelopment than your absolutist moral view:

Who cares about the BILLIONS who will suffer illness/injury/die just so that a few hundred elitists can keep their immortality?
You do not, apparently.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You keep bringing up how the Baku arrived on the planet prior to the formation of the Federation, but you fail to explain how this means the the planet can't be a part of the Federation.

I would have though the stuff from the shows and at the beginning of the this freaking movie that showed how a planet goes about becoming part of the federation would have clued you in on that.

But since it didn't, The three ways shown were 1) the federation colonizes an empty planet, and 2) A planet that people already live on has to go through a lengthy application process to join, 3) The Federation Council likely with the cooperation of the locals (seeing as the one time this was shown the locals had a diplomatic meet and greet) can give a planet protectorate status. But basically what it boils down to is they pretty much need consent of the people living on the planet.

You forgot one option: the future member species of the federation bring into the federation the territory they previously had.

I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.

In this case - the planet the baku were settling belonged to a future member of the federation.

Again I don't recall the Ba'Ku's original homeworld joining the Federation at any point during or before the events of the film.

All other options you mentioned are excluded - the federation does not claim already inhabited planetary systems.

Much like the Ba'ku planet.

Which means - the baku are tresspassers.

Nope, unless their original homeworld joins the Federation then the Federation doesn't own the planet any even then there can be legal troubles depending on if the Ba'ku broke away or not.

I doubt the peoples living in the Louisiana territory were given a choice of whether to follow the laws of the United States when they were acquired from the French.

United Federation of Planets =/= United States of America.

As it turns out, when it comes to eminent domain, the federation = every liberal democracy on Earth.

Actually its not eminent domain

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/eminent+domain

here is the relevant quote

A variety of property rights are subject to eminent domain, such as air, water, and land rights. The government takes private property through condemnation proceedings. Throughout these proceedings, the property owner has the right of due process.

So explain to me oh expert of the law just how grabbing the Ba'ku in their sleep and dumping them on another planet equates giving them the right of due process?

BTW, the liberal democracies have eminent domain not because it sounds cool. But because it generates far less suffering/underdevelopment than your absolutist moral view:

Its not a moral view the federation violated the Ba'Ku's due process rights which they are entitled to under eminent domain, so really what their doing is actually illegal

Who cares about the BILLIONS who will suffer illness/injury/die just so that a few hundred elitists can keep their immortality?
You do not, apparently.

The needs of the Many doesn't let you break the god damned law.