Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?

[Nyotarules]

Which is of course exactly my point. I do think the best approach that any new Star Trek production could take to these different races is to re-examine them under the microscope of absorbing some of these contradictory elements back into the later stereotype. For example, re-establishing some of the sense of menace that the Ferengi had in episodes like "The Last Outpost", "The Battle", "Peak Performance" and "Menage a Troi". Sure they remained devious in their later incarnations on DS9, but in those early TNG episodes they were a true threat, had something resembling a military, etc etc. Some of that got jettisoned later on, but if they were to be used in the future it would make sense to me to revisit some of that background that otherwise was lost along the way.

The Ferengi had no sense of menace, the audience found them funny in appearance (buttheads) and about as intimidating as a bottle of Saurian brandy

 

[Annorax849]

One of those things that always bemuses me is how Picard was literally the first assimilation. The Borg as shown prior had never done it, Locutus was a special plan, etc etc...but then, it became the modus operandi and the space zombies were born.

It's true The Borg weren't known to assimilate until we see Locutus, but in BoBW pt. 2 Locutus says something like "your people will be assimilated as easily as Picard was."

 

[Annorax849]

What did Kor do?

Killed Organians hostages by the hundreds as leverage against Kirk (okay not really, but the intent was there), threatened to execute 1000 more if a Klingon soldier was killed.

 

[SpaceLama]

Which is of course exactly my point. I do think the best approach that any new Star Trek production could take to these different races is to re-examine them under the microscope of absorbing some of these contradictory elements back into the later stereotype. For example, re-establishing some of the sense of menace that the Ferengi had in episodes like "The Last Outpost", "The Battle", "Peak Performance" and "Menage a Troi". Sure they remained devious in their later incarnations on DS9, but in those early TNG episodes they were a true threat, had something resembling a military, etc etc. Some of that got jettisoned later on, but if they were to be used in the future it would make sense to me to revisit some of that background that otherwise was lost along the way.

Yeah - I've always thought they should bring older traits back into currency - especially TOS vs TNG Klingons.

 

[Lance]

The Ferengi had no sense of menace, the audience found them funny in appearance (buttheads) and about as intimidating as a bottle of Saurian brandy

I was, of course, refering to the pretence of menace -- having a military, flying dangerous warships, using those electric whip thingies, etc etc. While the reality was that the viewers at home weren't fooled, TNG's Ferengi were quite considerably different to what DS9 did with them. They were often presented as a dangerous threat to the crew on TNG, albeit a weird looking one.

 

[SpaceLama]

Yeah, The Last Outpost strikes me in a couple of ways - Ferengi starships were considered evenly matched with the Federation's newest Galaxy class - and the Ferengi themselves seem to have a piratical, mercenary like military force. I think perhaps they were originally meant to operate as a mercantile empire, a bit like Venice, or the "Yankee traders" or the British, with clients who migth pay them to put down rebellions, etc.

The Romulans are another species with vast potential, that is only sometimes realised - here I like the TNG portrayal the most.

 

[Paradise City]

The core Ferengi characters were well developed as DS9 concluded minus Rom becoming grand nagus. Representations of Ferengi society in the course of the show, however, were slapstick and cartoonish; they were mostly horrible episodes really.

As for the Klingons they were probably a bit over-represented which was inevitable given that they were the Feds closest allies in a very long war arc and you had the fan favourite in the form of Worf on the books. But given that overrepresentation was a fait accompli, they did well with it. Worf, Martok and Gowron were well developed characters and we got a more advanced depiction of Klingon society that I think abandoned caricature more than anything.

 

[LJones41]

The Klingons ended up a lot less simplified at the end of DS9 than at the beginning. By the end DS9 portrayed them as hypocrites and politicians who use honor to their advantage when it suits them and ignore it when nobody's watching.

Wasn't the Federation guilty of the same by the end of "DS9"?

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

It might be a good time to look at Klingon appearances over the years - since there is a new rumor going around about what Klingons will look like in Discovery.

TOS era:

Re-imagined for The Motion Picture:

Refined in TNG and DS9:

Re-imagined for JJ Abrams Star Trek:

 

[Nyotarules]

The can all be valid, humans are diverse, why not Klingons?

 

[Kor]

You forgot the ones with the pinkish/lavender padded uniforms from TAS.

Kor

 

[gamer1]

Absolutely. They remind me of the Orcs in Warhammer 40000. In the end of DS9 it feels unrealistic that this race of warriors ever developed things like rocketry when they seem so damn barbaric. They really needed to show other sides of Klingon like scientists etc.

 

[velour]

Might not a species as aggressive as the Klingons start to encounter real internal trouble after they no longer have the outlet of extraterritorial expansion? Isn't that what we saw in TNG?

The Kzinti in Larry Niven's Known Space are far more aggressive than even the Klingons. I always assumed that after they got their heads handed to them in human and Known space that they continued their conquering/enslaving ways on other borders. Maybe the Klingons are doing the same.

Funny they don't take slaves. The Breen do and I wouldn't think the Klingons are less rapacious. I really would expect a culture like the Klingons' to take slaves--everyone else is inferior to Klingons more or less in their eyes and of course they are a militaristic expansionist civilization. Maybe they call them "work camps."

You made some good points.

I got the impression that it was the intention of the TNG writers to sanitize the nature of the Klingons. The TNG Klingons were allies of the Feds, so they had to be made to come across as sympathetic as possible. Imo, the TNG writers turned the Klingons into a hillbilly-like people obsessed with a warrior lifestyle.

It seemed to me that the writers did not want Picard, Worf and the Feds to have blood on their hands by being close allies with brutal, oppressive imperialists. So the Klingon story got whitewashed as best as they could.

During TNG, there was hardly any mention of what was happening to the conquered peoples and worlds within the Klingon empire. Hardly any mention of whether the Klingons were continuing their imperialist ways. Too often, the Klingons were portrayed as victims of the Romulans, of dishonorable leadership, and of internal conflicts caused by dishonorable Klingons; instead of Klingons being portrayed as the aggressors, the brutal imperialists.

However, by sanitizing the Klingons, the writers created contradictions.

If the Klingons stopped their expansionist ways of plundering and pillaging conquered worlds because of their peace treaty with the Feds, how did the Klingons sustain their population and maintain the stability of their empire after the explosion of Praxis?

Plus, the Klingons needed conquest and combat to satisfy their aggressive nature and warrior culture. If the Klingons did indeed give up their imperialist ways (except for their invasion of Cardassia), they would surely have destroyed themselves.

 

[Kor]

The whole Klingon system was failing. In dealing with the Federation and accepting its aid, they probably didn't have much choice but to comply with demands to give up its warmongering ways. The Federation has a way of imposing its values on cultures that it deals with. Some might consider this to be a form of imperialism, too.

Kor

 

[velour]

The whole Klingon system was failing. In dealing with the Federation and accepting its aid, they probably didn't have much choice but to comply with demands to give up its warmongering ways. The Federation has a way of imposing its values on cultures that it deals with. Some might consider this to be a form of imperialism, too.

Kor

I understand that the Klingon system was failing prior to the explosion of Praxis. But from what was shown in TNG, the Klingons didn't reform their warrior culture and mindset.

Even after the peace treaty, the Klingons were still obsessed with combat and warfare. They continued to hang onto their old mindset but without the imperialism. That seems like a contradiction to me. Shouldn't they have destroyed themselves instead, if they indeed gave up their option for conquest and expansion? Where else would they have turned their aggression if not on themselves.

By the way, did the Federation subsidize the Klingon empire with massive amounts of aid? Did this subsidy go on since the peace treaty was signed?

 

[UnknownSample]

The redefined Klingons of Next Gen had very narrow parameters. Not much room for fleshing out, when a race is devoted to war. Within those bounds, they did the best they could, and got better at it late in DS9.

 

[Nyotarules]

More bathlet tournaments, and forehead bashing means less time for imperial conquests. Also consider Chancellor Gorkon's influence might have affected the empire subconsciously, when a nation state is economically broke it does not have resources to keep an empire expanding e.g The British empire after WW2 Trek never showed how ordinary Klingons lived, all we see is the military.

 

[baxart]

It seems to me the way to end the flat vs ridged Klingon debate, would have been one simple exchange.
Instead of:

WORF: They are Klingons, and it is a long story.
O'BRIEN: What happened? Some kind genetic engineering?
BASHIR: A viral mutation?
WORF: We do not discuss it with outsiders.​

We should have gotten:

WORF: The Federation promotes racial diversity. The Empire does not.
O'BRIEN: Meaning...
WORF: Whatever identity they may have had before their world became part of the Empire, they are Klingons now.
​

Problem solved.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Logical, perhaps, but less fun. And "Trials and Tribble-ations" was all about the fun.

I'm also not fond of any solution that retroactively makes Kor, Koloth, Kang, and every other Klingon we saw on TOS not "real" Klingons.

 

[zar]

It seems to me the way to end the flat vs ridged Klingon debate, would have been one simple exchange.
Instead of:

WORF: They are Klingons, and it is a long story.
O'BRIEN: What happened? Some kind genetic engineering?
BASHIR: A viral mutation?
WORF: We do not discuss it with outsiders.​

We should have gotten:

WORF: The Federation promotes racial diversity. The Empire does not.
O'BRIEN: Meaning...
WORF: Whatever identity they may have had before their world became part of the Empire, they are Klingons now.
​

Problem solved.

And don't forget, instead of:

DAX: That's Koloth's ship.
SISKO: Curzon's old friend?
DAX: Yes. And he isn't going to attack. I remember Koloth telling me he once traded insults with Kirk on a space station near the Federation border. He always regretted never getting the chance to face him in battle.
​

We would need:

DAX: That's Koloth's ship.
SISKO: Curzon's old friend?
DAX: No, the one who is a different race but happens to look a bit like Curzon's old friend with the same name. He probably wouldn't attack either, I guess.​