Shogun - I watched it the first time it came on tv (1980?). It was repeated last year on CBS Action channel in the UK, still a great show.
Did Klingon culture become too stereotyped by the end of DS9?
- Thread starter INACTIVEUSS Einstein
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@jaime - Good explanation of why headscarves are not so great idea. Agreed.
@USS Einstein - Singling out Islam like that seems rather problematic. What the religious texts actually say or don't say matters little. Someone will always find an excuse to be an ass. Hell, there are even Buddhist terrorists. Christianity used to be unquestionable truth and heresy was punishable with death. It has been used to justify war, genocide, slavery, oppression of women (and still is.) And of course it is regularly used to justify denying rights of LGBT people. The American religious right are a scary lot. If they had their way it would be fucking Republic of Gilead. In many ways they are no better than islamists. It was not a long time ago when one devout Christian went on a shooting spree on an abortion clinic. Of course it was quickly forgotten as he wasn't a scary Muslim.
As for the actual topic, to me it seemed that in few posts you conflated morality and viability of the civilisation. I don't think that anyone thinks that the Klingon Empire is particularly nice civilization, but this doesn't mean it cannot be a viable one.
@USS Einstein - Singling out Islam like that seems rather problematic. What the religious texts actually say or don't say matters little. Someone will always find an excuse to be an ass. Hell, there are even Buddhist terrorists. Christianity used to be unquestionable truth and heresy was punishable with death. It has been used to justify war, genocide, slavery, oppression of women (and still is.) And of course it is regularly used to justify denying rights of LGBT people. The American religious right are a scary lot. If they had their way it would be fucking Republic of Gilead. In many ways they are no better than islamists. It was not a long time ago when one devout Christian went on a shooting spree on an abortion clinic. Of course it was quickly forgotten as he wasn't a scary Muslim.
As for the actual topic, to me it seemed that in few posts you conflated morality and viability of the civilisation. I don't think that anyone thinks that the Klingon Empire is particularly nice civilization, but this doesn't mean it cannot be a viable one.
Getting back on Klingons, and away from real world metaphors, what do you think of Qo'noS's diverse appearance?
I find it quite cool; they are all easily the same planet, but show quite a bit of regional variation. The only other planets I can think of that have been shown with as much diversity were Vulcan and Earth (maybe Romulus if you count the images on the Holodeck in The Defector).
I find it quite cool; they are all easily the same planet, but show quite a bit of regional variation. The only other planets I can think of that have been shown with as much diversity were Vulcan and Earth (maybe Romulus if you count the images on the Holodeck in The Defector).
I expect inhabited M class planets to be almost as diverse as Earth except Vulcan which seems to be 70% desert land and not many seas and Andoria is it mainly an ice planet, 80% Antarctica or something?
@Longinus -He didn't conflate the Klingon Empire's morality with their viability.
Also, i do think religious scripture matters somewhat, via a simple logical observation; Jains are less violent than Jews, Christians and Muslims. If your assertion were correct, surely, all would have an absolutely equal incidence of religious violence?
Thats not to say that anyone here is arguing it's an inevitability, or anything like that. Just that some seem to have more problems than others.
Also, i do think religious scripture matters somewhat, via a simple logical observation; Jains are less violent than Jews, Christians and Muslims. If your assertion were correct, surely, all would have an absolutely equal incidence of religious violence?
Thats not to say that anyone here is arguing it's an inevitability, or anything like that. Just that some seem to have more problems than others.
Indeed, I wasn't arguing that about the klingons - if anything the opposite is true and dishon opportunism builds empires. At least until some paradigm shifts.
Anyway, on the topic of religion, I'm politely critiquing religion, and not a people, one must remember - and I'm also not as arrogant as to say I can't be wrong. I would be glad to find that my previous view was correct and with education and wealth these things will sort extremism out. For all I know you are correct. But since it's contentious topic that can't be proven or disproven, and lacks quantifiable evidence, I'll leave it there.
Back to the klingons - yeah Kronos appearance is fascinating - I liked that abandoned industrial district in Into Darkness
Anyway, on the topic of religion, I'm politely critiquing religion, and not a people, one must remember - and I'm also not as arrogant as to say I can't be wrong. I would be glad to find that my previous view was correct and with education and wealth these things will sort extremism out. For all I know you are correct. But since it's contentious topic that can't be proven or disproven, and lacks quantifiable evidence, I'll leave it there.
Back to the klingons - yeah Kronos appearance is fascinating - I liked that abandoned industrial district in Into Darkness
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Logically of course you have broken those large religious bodies down into easily the easily distinguishable and disparate groups of which they are made, and then factored in any historical factors such as competition for resources or similar, found some way to factor in societal differences for the ages of humanity for which any given violence occurs and then found a way to compare like for like?
I mean it's safe to say scientology hasn't been at the front of any wars given its age, but how would I go about comparing that to the Roman Empire, which only converted to Christianity, and existed at what was generally a much more perilous and violent time for humanity? How does one get a control for comparison? Should we use Soviet Russia, which ditched all religion? communist China perhaps?
No. People tend to cause wars, the things they use to justify it down the ages have always been secondary to the cause of power somewhere along the line, whether in resisting someone else's power or exercising your own, societally speaking.
Which brings us back to the Klingons. Who decide what is honourable in order to use that to justify their own power struggles....Gowron and his attacks on Cardassian space, K'mpec and his decision regarding which provided more power and security, the truth or a lie all predicated on Klingon Honour systems. The figure of kahless himself, now a clone of a man who became a God by slaying the old gods...used to shore up belief in Klingon religion so as to unify a people and ensure the empires survival.
Useful things Klingons.
I think it's time to drop that topic. Lest SpaceLama and you offer rebuttals to each other's points, and back and forth, ad infinitum - I can see plenty of ways he could respond to that believably, and plenty of ways you could to him. The truth is, it's not a topic that can be 'won'; it is a matter of opinion, like say left vs right in economics. There are Marxist critiques 30 years on, such as in the New Left Review, which offer believable counter-points to the latest capitalist thought; because probably, either way works, in it's own way - there isn't so much a right or a wrong, as a choice between two methods, each with drawbacks.
The Klingons do seem to be predisposed to aggression. It is in their genes.
I remember the episode "Genesis" where the Enterprise crew devolved into primitive forms. Worf devolved into a violent beast, a genuine monster. Obviously, the current Klingon species evolved from a really aggressive predator. The monster genes apparently carried over to the current Klingon species and aggression is a dominant feature of Klingon behavior.
About the matter of stereotyping, it would seem that Starfleet perpetuated the Klingon warrior stereotype. Ironically, it actually might have been a legitimate stereotype.
Why was it that Worf was almost always assigned to positions that deal with security? Can you imagine Worf being assigned to the engineering department, or the medical staff, or to the touchy feely counselor department. Apparently Starfleet thought Worf was only suitable for combat related positions, and maybe for good reason. And Worf didn't have any complaints about that.
How can the Klingon Empire become a Star Empire if they can't manage the Engineering, etc? the problem of our posters here are basically right. Even if Klingon evolve from a very aggressive beast, but they are a very advanced species who can build star ships and explore the galaxy. So the biker gang culture won't work for a complex Species like them.
It was suggested that Klingons 'came by' warp technology...Probably in the books.
Putting that aside, the culture of Klingons is based on something like 17th century Japan. Yes there are farmers, traders, artisans etc...but the ruling class is a warrior class and this therefore filters to all aspects of their culture. (the producers probably read shogun) it also decides the value of a given role in their society. As to whether that can run an empire...well, if a nation of shopkeepers can do it...
The Klingons, as shown, work as a fictional culture well enough. Are they realistic enough? Also yes. We have seen scientists, engineers, religious men and restaurateurs. We having seen who deals with sewage, but then, according to 99 percent of TV, humans in the fictional realm don't excrete anyway.
Oh...and Biker Gangs are very very organised indeed.
Might not a species as aggressive as the Klingons start to encounter real internal trouble after they no longer have the outlet of extraterritorial expansion? Isn't that what we saw in TNG?
The Kzinti in Larry Niven's Known Space are far more aggressive than even the Klingons. I always assumed that after they got their heads handed to them in human and Known space that they continued their conquering/enslaving ways on other borders. Maybe the Klingons are doing the same.
Funny they don't take slaves. The Breen do and I wouldn't think the Klingons are less rapacious. I really would expect a culture like the Klingons' to take slaves--everyone else is inferior to Klingons more or less in their eyes and of course they are a militaristic expansionist civilization. Maybe they call them "work camps."
The Kzinti in Larry Niven's Known Space are far more aggressive than even the Klingons. I always assumed that after they got their heads handed to them in human and Known space that they continued their conquering/enslaving ways on other borders. Maybe the Klingons are doing the same.
Funny they don't take slaves. The Breen do and I wouldn't think the Klingons are less rapacious. I really would expect a culture like the Klingons' to take slaves--everyone else is inferior to Klingons more or less in their eyes and of course they are a militaristic expansionist civilization. Maybe they call them "work camps."
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It obviously became too rigid. The same is true of other races in Trek, eg the Ferengi. Over time the broader aspects of their culture that existed early on always seem to get eroded away to a strict, rigid formula. Vulcans are all universally emotionless, atonal. Klingons are animalistic and SPEAK OF HONOR IN LOUD VOICES. Romulans are treacherous and secretive. Ferengi care only for profit and can't fight to save their grandmas. The Borg assimilate other species. All of these one-line descriptions are how we think of those races, all of the time, but often they actually started out with much broader, more compelling traits that simply got jettisoned along the way.
It is difficult for real life humans who come from a culture that stereotypes their own species to maintain a diverse picture of a group of fictional species, especially when its a tv show with limited time to expand on things when the core group is humanity exploring the galaxy. The only way this is done better is in some of the novels
For me the biggest inconsistency was Kor. He wasn't just a fighter for the other side in TOS, he was really really bad guy. 100 years later he's some honored elder, even respected by Worf. Kang and Koloth made a little more sense.
One of those things that always bemuses me is how Picard was literally the first assimilation. The Borg as shown prior had never done it, Locutus was a special plan, etc etc...but then, it became the modus operandi and the space zombies were born.
Which is of course exactly my point. 
I do think the best approach that any new Star Trek production could take to these different races is to re-examine them under the microscope of absorbing some of these contradictory elements back into the later stereotype. For example, re-establishing some of the sense of menace that the Ferengi had in episodes like "The Last Outpost", "The Battle", "Peak Performance" and "Menage a Troi". Sure they remained devious in their later incarnations on DS9, but in those early TNG episodes they were a true threat, had something resembling a military, etc etc. Some of that got jettisoned later on, but if they were to be used in the future it would make sense to me to revisit some of that background that otherwise was lost along the way.
I do think the best approach that any new Star Trek production could take to these different races is to re-examine them under the microscope of absorbing some of these contradictory elements back into the later stereotype. For example, re-establishing some of the sense of menace that the Ferengi had in episodes like "The Last Outpost", "The Battle", "Peak Performance" and "Menage a Troi". Sure they remained devious in their later incarnations on DS9, but in those early TNG episodes they were a true threat, had something resembling a military, etc etc. Some of that got jettisoned later on, but if they were to be used in the future it would make sense to me to revisit some of that background that otherwise was lost along the way.
I suppose they wanted to create an alien race scarier than the Klingons who were now allies, the Romulans who were in isolation and the Ferengi who became comedy relief. The Jem Hader were scarier, the rules of war meant nothing to them.They would kill a room full of babies if it would please the Founders... Gamma Quadrant ISIS.
What did Kor do?
They would have to be told to first. I think the relgious aspect of the jem hadar is actually played down quite a lot...its simply there for total obedience. Theres no similarity to religious combatants of any kind in recent history.
Perhaps egyptian soldiers a few millenia ago.
In terms of the borg, its really First Contact where the change happens, so i think its more about cinematic body horror.
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