Did Kirk "Kill"?

[darkshadow0001]

I've noticed in the TNG movies Picard did a lot of killing of his enemies, but I don't remember Kirk doing much of that. More or less, he saved lives. I realize Picard killed to save his own and who he was protecting, but it seems as though the 24th century really wasn't better then the 23rd, if you think about it. I do not remember much of TOS except for watching re-runs on Nickelodeon back in the 80's, but I doubt he killed much. Kind of strange, donchya think?

(I realize this could be put in the movie forum, but since it's a thread about both, I decided to put it here)

 

[ibb]

I can't remember anything specifically from the actual episodes, but he did off numerous Klingons in the movies -- ordering the Enterprise to self-destruct once a Klingon crew was aboard, for instance. Kirk and Sulu both destroyed Chang's ship in The Undiscovered Country.

 

[Timo]

In TOS, the situation was somewhat different.

Kirk rarely went in for a kill when fighting crewed spacecraft. In "Balance of Terror" and "Journey to Babel", the adversaries self-destructed when Kirk was offering them no doubt reasonable conditions of surrender. Only in the teaser of "Errand of Mercy" did Kirk strike back at the Klingon attacker with deliberate lethal force, destroying the enemy vessel with all hands. And in "Day of the Dove", admittedly under the influence of a mind-bending alien, he ordered destroyed a crippled Klingon ship that supposedly had hundreds of Klingons (although probably mainly dead ones) aboard.

After crushing his close friend under a tombstone in the pilot episode, Kirk never killed anybody in hand-to-hand in TOS. In phaserfights against live opponents, he always chose the stun setting, even during times of war such as in "Errand of Mercy"! When fighting with confiscated firearms or other missile weapons, he avoided actually shooting anybody, unless he knew the target was a mere phantom. Arguably, he was forced to kill in "A Taste of Armageddon" where the only guns in his possession were the Eminian sonic pistols that apparently were invariably lethal. (But those guns could have had a stun setting, too - perhaps helping explain how Ambassador Fox is so little concerned with the fact that his aide gets gunned down by such a pistol.)

In fights with bladed weapons, Kirk always withheld the killing blow even when victorious. That is, except in "Day of the Dove", where apparently nobody died despite being killed multiple times.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman47]

Didn't Kirk shoot dead the Klingon in TSFS or did he have his Phaser on stun? Then the fight he had with Kruge at the end where he caused his death by kicking him into the lava below.

It makes you think though if you compare personal kills of both Kirk and Picard then who would actually on top and I'd have to say that it could possibly be Kirk. Even if you look at novels (please do not mention there not canon) Kirk has had confrontations with other people in them as well where they've resulted in a death by Kirk's hands. Not too sure on any confrontations like in TNG novels.

 

[Timo]

All we really know is that Kirk didn't have his phaser on Evaporate when neutralizing the last planetside Klingon other than Kruge. We've never seen that orange kick-in-the-chest effect before or since, but it might be the famed "heavy stun". And the hit probably broke the Klingon's neck even if the bolt itself wasn't lethal.

That was personal for Kirk, of course. For all he knew, this very Klingon had killed his son. And it would be consistent for Kirk to keep killing Klingons, as those had been the only opponents he killed in TOS. The whole "let them die" thing from ST6 need not have come from out of the blue...

Remarkably, Kirk didn't want to kill Khan - again, he offered him honorable surrender. And technically speaking, Kirk didn't really kill Chang, either: Sulu was the one to make the decision to use deadly force once Kirk's homing torpedo had illuminated the target. Despite the fancy flame effects, Chang was probably still alive and his ship more or less intact when Sulu's torpedoes hit.

Admittedly, Kirk did follow with killing torpedoes of his own after Sulu had launched his deadly volley...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[misskim86]

Yeah he kills people in Wrath of Khan and The search for Spock

 

[siskokid888]

IIRC, in "Errand of Mercy", Kirk says to Spock "This is a killing situation", meaning that they were not stunning the Klingons, they were killing them. Understandable, as they were at war at that point for all intents and purposes. I remember Picard killing a Klingon assassin in "Sins of the Father", but who else did he kill? I don't recall him killing all that much.

 

[archeryguy1701]

Well, he killed the giant space ameoba in that one episode... it was just trying to live too!

 

[EnsignJulka]

That poor ameoba...

 

[Timo]

IIRC, in "Errand of Mercy", Kirk says to Spock "This is a killing situation", meaning that they were not stunning the Klingons, they were killing them. Understandable, as they were at war at that point for all intents and purposes.

...Yet when they stormed the Klingon headquarters, he specifically told Spock to set his phaser on stun. And lo, the green stun effects were subsequently shown. Kirk merely theorized that there might be a need to kill later on, and at that point they should not hesitate - but he never killed any Klingons after blowing up the ship in the teaser.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nebusj]

siskokid888 said:
IIRC, in "Errand of Mercy", Kirk says to Spock "This is a killing situation", meaning that they were not stunning the Klingons, they were killing them.

Right spirit: Kirk says ``Set your phaser on stun. We're after the top dog, not the members of the pack ... but if the situation calls for it, we kill.''

I'm rather surprised by this observation about Kirk and the rarity of times he'd killed someone by hand (even if you include rather intelligent computers, such as Nomad or M-5, in the roster).

 

[VOODOOXI]

The Star Trek universe is far from the peaceful/perfect society many claim it to be.

 

[MadBaggins]

Umm, Kirk killed Klingons indiscriminately in the movies. Like they were animals.

 

[Nebusj]

MadBaggins said:
Umm, Kirk killed Klingons indiscriminately in the movies. Like they were animals.

Not in the Trek movies he didn't. Going to the record:

The Motion Picture. Kirk doesn't interact with Klingons at all.

The Wrath of Khan. No Klingons.

The Search for Spock. Kirk does open fire first at Kruge's vessel, taking the (correct, but not necessarily justified from what Kirk could know) assumption that it must be related to the disappearance of the Grissom and was preparing to attack the Enterprise. Here, he uses the force which nullifies the ship's capacity to attack, and not necessarily to kill. He orders the self-destruction of the Enterprise, killing the party which has raided the ship, but it's not indiscriminate to kill people in an invading force. Later he stuns (according to the script) one Klingon holding hostages; that's not killing. He later kills Kruge, who is trying to kill him; again, that's not indiscriminate. It's self-defense.

The Voyage Home. Kirk doesn't interact with Klingons at all.

The Final Frontier. Kirk interacts with Klingons, but kills none; in fact, he works to preserve their lives.

The Undiscovered Country. Kirk kills the Klingons aboard the ship which has attacked him and is trying to murder the leadership of the Federation and the Klingon Empire. Again neither indiscriminate nor ``killing like animals''.

Generations. Kirk interacts with no Klingons.

 

[Plum]

darkshadow0001 said:
I've noticed in the TNG movies Picard did a lot of killing of his enemies, but I don't remember Kirk doing much of that. More or less, he saved lives. I realize Picard killed to save his own and who he was protecting, but it seems as though the 24th century really wasn't better then the 23rd, if you think about it. I do not remember much of TOS except for watching re-runs on Nickelodeon back in the 80's, but I doubt he killed much. Kind of strange, donchya think?

(I realize this could be put in the movie forum, but since it's a thread about both, I decided to put it here)

Hmmm... did Picard kill more than Kirk? Interesting question. I've no idea... but if I can extrapolate, I'm sure the death toll for all the Trek series would most likely even out per captain. Why? Because they all have similar policy. The only difference is Kirks's mere three seasons compared to the TNG era.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Nebusj said:

MadBaggins said:
Umm, Kirk killed Klingons indiscriminately in the movies. Like they were animals.

Not in the Trek movies he didn't. Going to the record:

The Motion Picture. Kirk doesn't interact with Klingons at all.

The Wrath of Khan. No Klingons.

The Search for Spock. Kirk does open fire first at Kruge's vessel, taking the (correct, but not necessarily justified from what Kirk could know) assumption that it must be related to the disappearance of the Grissom and was preparing to attack the Enterprise. Here, he uses the force which nullifies the ship's capacity to attack, and not necessarily to kill. He orders the self-destruction of the Enterprise, killing the party which has raided the ship, but it's not indiscriminate to kill people in an invading force. Later he stuns (according to the script) one Klingon holding hostages; that's not killing. He later kills Kruge, who is trying to kill him; again, that's not indiscriminate. It's self-defense.

Indeed. He kills Kruge after offering to save him ("Give me your hand!") and then bluffs Maltz with "Fine, I'll kill you later" followed by "Take the prisoner below" and "I lied."

Man, Kirk was great even in a sub-great movie.

 

[Timo]

In contrast, Picard ends up killing his nemesis in all of his movies! He makes Soran's rocket explode, knowing fully well that Soran would be on the pad trying to launch the thing. He douses the Borg Queen in acid, then tears the remains to pieces. He blows up Rua'fo (although admittedly only as a minor bonus to blowing up the metaphasic collector, and admittedly apparently while thinking that he himself will go down with the collector, too). And he fights his clone hand to hand with the intent to kill.

Picard in TNG doesn't kill much, unless one counts Borg. Ditto for Janeway. Sisko, OTOH, fights several space battles in which up to dozens of enemy vessels get blown up at Sisko's direct command, hundreds as part of his battle plans. I don't think we can "even out" Sisko's death toll to match those of the other three big skippers. (Then again, Picard may also have been killing Dominion minions when we weren't looking.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Kirk did a lot more hand to hand combat than Picard and generally just kicked ass without having to kill.

 

[Delta1]

Picard's nemesis-slaying usually wasn't indiscriminate or especially brutal. One might argue that he locked the trilithium rocket down hoping that it would explode harmlessly, or delay Soran until the ribbon had passed, negating Soran's motivation for launching the rocket. Blowing up Soran was just one possible outcome of Picard's actions, and perhaps not the one intended.

Killing the Borg Queen is a bit more troublesome. The metallic skull and spinal cord seem to exist to protect the Queen's central nervous system; if it survived the destruction of her body, then the Queen's personality may have remained intact. It is hard to determine if she was hors de combat or not at this point. Certainly the destruction of her drones and fleshy bits greatly reduced her capability to resist. On the other hand, she may have continued to fight by exerting an influence on the Borgified bits of the ship, although I imagine that influence would be slight. Either way, Picard probably made a lot of cyberneticists really angry.

 

[tundra04]

I love TOS and Kirk for that matter, but I must say that he always put a lot more effort in seducing the diverse females he came accross. Yep! the man was definetly more of a lover than a fighter