Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?

[Refuge]

Effectively when Tuvix was imploring the Captain to not allow the 'procedure' he was condemning Tuvok and Neelix. He would have been perfectly fine for them to be sacrificed. Is that not killing?

I like that argument that one can live on in others when I used it in relation to Tuvix, lol. He was indeed returned to his origins. About facing that to suggesting that Tuvok and Neelix were living on in Tuvix is parasitic to me. They were two wholes if you like, they couldn't regain their existence let alone awareness within Tuvix. That wasn't them like conjoined twins as Tuvix. Their origins were Tuvok and Neelix.

I actually think Tuvok showed he had a nobility in his character, he could exercise self-sacrifice. I believe the same for Neelix. I think it must have been the plant gene that got to Tuvix because he didn't get his cowardly self-preservation from his hosts..

 

[at Quark's]

Would it be fair to ask did Tuvix kill Tuvok and Neelix? If he had retained his position would he have then willingly chosen to kill two others?

In my opinion (to the first question): no. They were already dead before he was created. A fraction of a second perhaps, but still. (And even if that wasn't entirely true, and he could be technically said to have 'killled' them, it still would be no more true than in the sense that an unborn child can 'kill' his mother in childbirth. We don't usually accuse them, because it wouldn't be fair.)

As for if Tuvix was right to try to survive instead of Neelix and Tuvok, that's an insoluble dilemma in my eyes. Most people consider it noble to sacrifice your own life (me included) but does that imply that not sacrificing your own life is a despicable deed? It would be easy for me to judge one way of another, sitting on my chair.... until I come into such a situation myself. Would I do so? I don't know. I hope it never gets put to the test.

I actually think Tuvok showed he had a nobility in his character, he could exercise self-sacrifice. I believe the same for Neelix. I think it must have been the plant gene that got to Tuvix because he didn't get his cowardly self-preservation from his hosts..

Tuvok: agreed. Neelix: don't know.

Later Neelix, yes. But Neelix at this point in the series -as I see him- was still a selfish little guy, wrestling with his posessive jealousy over Kes. I know that Janeway says she believes that Neelix would sacrifice his life, but I don't see too much evidence for that at this point in the series. Perhaps I see a bit of what Neelix would become later in Jetrel and investigations.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

They were already dead before he was created.

That's a non-starter.

 

[at Quark's]

^It is an observation, to prevent the argument that he 'killed' them, even if only considered in a technical sense. Because that's simply not true.

The main point to me (regarding this) is that he bears no guilt to their death. Perhaps carries a responsibility to 'resurrect' them, yes, (which I suppose is the matter under discussion).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

^It is an observation, to prevent the argument that he 'killed' them, even if only considered in a technical sense. Because that's simply not true.

The main point to me (regarding this) is that he bears no guilt to their death.

It can't be an observation, because it's observed not to be the case. Neelix and Tuvok survived the whole ordeal. Not. Dead. That's why it's a non-starter.

 

[at Quark's]

^ah, OK, in that case I misunderstood you.

I take it then you suscribe to the idea that someone is not dead as long as the process can be reversed in some way.

With progressing technology, it becomes increasingly difficult to judge whether someone is dead or not.

Suppose the EMH never found a way to reverse the process, could they then have been considered 'dead' from the moment of the transporter accident? Or, if he only found this way 10 years later, would they have been considered 'dead' for all practical intents and purposes most of that time, only to reverse that evaluation after the EMH makes it possible to bring back the original Neelix and Tuvok?

If Jetrel had succeeded in bringing back the victims of the Metron cascade, were they then never actually killed in the first place?

I'm not sure but I think some of the fiction within Trek muddles the usefulness of the delineation of such categories.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I take it then you suscribe to the idea that someone is not dead as long as the process can be reversed in some way.

Yeah. Well, more precisely, within the context of Star Trek, with transporters and other advanced technology being so integral to the premise, one does, I believe, have to accept that as a principle in-universe.

Voyager even had an episode in which Neelix confronted the philosophical issue of being brought back after having been believed dead by Federation standards, "Mortal Coil."

If Jetrel had succeeded in bringing back the victims of the Metron cascade, were they then never actually killed in the first place?

There's a Zen kōan about death that I find interesting, and the I've boldfaced the relevant part [#95 of 101 Zen Stories]:

95. A Letter to a Dying Man

Bassui wrote the following letter to one of his disciples who was about to die:

"The essence of your mind is not born, so it will never die. It is not an existence, which is perishable. It is not an emptiness, which is a mere void. It has neither color nor form. It enjoys no pleasures and suffers no pains.

"I know you are very ill. Like a good Zen student, you are facing that sickness squarely. You may not know exactly who is suffering, but question yourself: What is the essence of this mind? Think only of this. You will need no more. Covet nothing. Your end which is endless is as a snowflake dissolving in the pure air."
​

I mean, so to talk about it, which is always more than problematic, the point here as I see it is that life and death might exist along a continuum, rather than be this either-or thing, at least within certain limits. In "Mortal Coil," Neelix was within reach. In "Jetrel," the victims were still beyond reach. It's conceivable that more advanced technology might have succeeded in reversing the effects of the metreon cascade.

 

[Refuge]

If he had the choice Tuvix would have condemned Tuvok and Neelix to being sacrificed, yes? I don't blame him for his appearance but later when he had an ethical choice to make he chose himself. He lacked the honor to the very entities that he was merged from. Who was going to speak for Tuvok and for Neelix when Tuvix wasn't?

 

[at Quark's]

There's a Zen kōan about death <etc>

Beautiful reply, thank you!

To tell the truth, similar thoughts (about the continuum of life and death in Trek) crossed my mind when writing my first post of today in this thread.

It's just that using terms like 'dead' and 'killed' are a lot more convenient than 'their bodily existence (and probably their consciousness as well) seems to have been terminated, at least until we might be able to reverse the process' and more of these terms. My post would triple in size and become less readable, taking more of mine and the reader's time. So this is why I choose to go with the 'loose, extended' definition of death. Perhaps we should invent new shorthand for Trek situations like this that happen often, 'probdead', or so

 

[SaturnVuk]

Yes 100% ( Has to be done ! ! !)

 

[MacLeod]

If he had the choice Tuvix would have condemned Tuvok and Neelix to being sacrificed, yes? I don't blame him for his appearance but later when he had an ethical choice to make he chose himself. He lacked the honor to the very entities that he was merged from. Who was going to speak for Tuvok and for Neelix when Tuvix wasn't?

Isn't that why we have courts to decide issues like this? When did Tuvix hve an impartial hearing?

 

[Prax]

A Captain's orders are legally binding.

 

[MacLeod]

A Captain's orders are legally binding.

Well that's not entirely accurate. But for the sake argument lets say Janeway gave a legal order and someone refused to carry it out. What would happen? Wouldn't they be subject to a court-martial and as unless Tuvix joined Starfleet he was a civilian which could mean he could put his case before a jury of his peers i.e a civilian court.

 

[marlboro]

A Captain's orders are legally binding.

Even when they order someone to break the law? Like an order to break the Prime Directive, or possibly an order along the lines of "Hey guys, grab that ugly freak pleading for his life over there so i can rip him in two with this transporter?"

It was murder. No matter how you twist it, turn it, try to find some sort of loophole in (fictional) Federation law, or argue that Janeway really needed Neelix back, it was still murder.

You can tell me that you sometimes have to do evil things for the greater good, but don't tell me that, if your ends are just that the means you choose to attain them must automatically be just as well.

 

[Prax]

From MY point of view, the TUVIX is Evil!!!!

 

[Refuge]

I must have missed the episode where the verdict of murder was handed down. Tuvix didn't get a hearing? Nor did Janeway.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Six of Twelve]

Seems to me they could have cloned Tuvix, then turned the original Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix. You know, to have their cake and to eat it, too. But, then, they'd have had to cast the actor who played Tuvix, which was something they weren't prepared to do. Thus, the story ended as it did.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yeah, then you'd have two Tuvix's demanding that they not be split.

And after you split one of them, you'd have Tuvok and Neelix demanding that you split the other one too because it's not fair to do that to the other Neelix and Tuvok, to leave them smudged up inside a poorly dressed asshole.

Although the Clone can really argue that they are not the real Tuvix, and therefore not the real Neelix and real Tuvok, so there's no reason to split him to make fake copies of their friends who are not real.

As soon as you prove that the clone Tuvix doesn't have to be split, you then drop the hammer that Tuvok and Neelix were already clones since Deadlock only a couple weeks ago, so they ain't got a ####ing leg to stand on about being more real, or having decades of impact on the universe as unique beings since they are both stinking no good clones, who are only a few weeks older than Tuvix.

 

[Refuge]

Do you think you could work the Demon planet Tuvok and Neelix into this?

 

[Guy Gardener]

If in Demon, Neelix and Tuvok really cared about Tuvix, they would have made a Tuvix, and maybe they did?

They still had caretaker's corpse? Seska's corpse, Suder's corpse, Quinn's corpse and Kes from Fury's Corpse? Federation ritual is transporter dispersal? So the Doctor is just a playful sicko for keeping all those bodies wrapped in plastic?