Did Geordie marry a REAL girl?

[TommyR01D]

I watched this show in the 80s.

When was the last time you watched Cobra or Red Heat?

I was born in the '90s and I've never watched either of them.

We had a skewed value system back them, and I was too young to know any better.

So watching TNG in the 80s, Geordi did not come across as normal, like Sylvestor Stalone does.

In the 80s all masculinity was toxic masculinity.

Okay, from your initial post it appeared that you still thought that way.

I'd actually advocate renaming Toxic Masculinity to something like "False Masculinity" because in my experience the biggest dispensers of toxic masculinity are man-children who desperately try to fit an often infantile idea what "real men" are supposed to be like.

I think "internalised misandry" would be the natural term, given that it's supposed to be the counterpart of "internalised misogyny".

That's not a bad thought. Masculinity is at it's best when it's combined with universal human virtues like responsibility, compassion, and respect. It's at its worst when it's nothing more than physical and emotional toughness, and the absence of "weak" emotions like fear and sadness.

An interesting take I read online last year (can't really remember where) is that over the last half-century most of the positive traits associated with masculinity have been appropriated by women and thus made general human values, with the result that only the "toxic" aspects remain distinctively male.

 

[Orphalesion]

An interesting take I read online last year (can't really remember where) is that over the last half-century most of the positive traits associated with masculinity have been appropriated by women and thus made general human values, with the result that only the "toxic" aspects remain distinctively male.

I would rather say the positive traits associated with both masculinity and femininity are both universal human values and it's just cultural convention that sorts them into "female" and "male" traits.

 

[Oddish]

An interesting take I read online last year (can't really remember where) is that over the last half-century most of the positive traits associated with masculinity have been appropriated by women and thus made general human values, with the result that only the "toxic" aspects remain distinctively male.

That would explain a lot, and I think it's largely true.
Positive traits: Reliability, responsibility, integrity, maturity, work ethic, strength, protectiveness, selflessness, compassion.
Toxic traits: Toughness, coldness, lack of empathy, stunted feelings, ambition, sexual appetite, capacity for violence.
Positive aspects of masculinity keep the negative ones in check. Protectiveness and compassion ensure that capacity for violence isn't misused. Responsibility and integrity ensure that ambition doesn't go too far and encourages fidelity to spouse and children. Et cetera.

would rather say the positive traits associated with both masculinity and femininity are both universal human values and it's just cultural convention that sorts them into "female" and "male" traits.

Maybe nowadays, in our egalitarian society. Through most of history, though, work required the superior strength and endurance that the male body has, and mothers needed to be close to the children because she was their primary food supply. Through a combination of evolution and societal pressure, each gender gained certain inherent strengths and weaknesses. There's a lot of overlap, though.

 

[jackoverfull]

I would rather say the positive traits associated with both masculinity and femininity are both universal human values and it's just cultural convention that sorts them into "female" and "male" traits.

agreed. This has probably a lot to do with women finally starting to be regarded as persons instead of cattle. And there is still a long way from here to there.

 

[Orphalesion]

Positive traits: Reliability, responsibility, integrity, maturity, work ethic, strength, protectiveness, selflessness, compassion..

But all of these virtues were also historically assigned to female ideals of various cultures. Consider, for example that the Virgin Mary in European folk religion is both the incarnation of compassion and a protectress and in these context is both seen as the ideal of Christian woman- and motherhood. I grew up seeing murals and statues of her trampling a dragon underneath her feet.
The tropes of women being "wiser", hard-working (without a complaint, naturally) and expected to be selfless is old as dirt. In fact generations of women got selflessness and self-sacrifice drilled into them.

The difference is more in the context cultures often expected men or women to display those "virtues". Women were mostly expected to display those virtues as wives and mothers.

 

[Oddish]

Regardless, these traits allow more traditionally masculine traits like sexual desire, aggression, and ambition to be kept in check. Desire is restrained by fidelity. Aggression is channeled into protectiveness. Ambition is tempered by decency.

Toxic masculinity isn't the result of men being men, it's the result of men making bad choices.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was no choice.

Every movie and TV show instructed boys not to cry, and if they cried, they were probably gay, and needed to be beaten up.

You joined the mob, or the mob crushed you.

It was about survival.

 

[Orphalesion]

There was no choice.

Every movie and TV show instructed boys not to cry, and if they cried, they were probably gay, and needed to be beaten up.

You joined the mob, or the mob crushed you.

It was about survival.

Yikes, you make the 80s sound like Mad Max, was it really that bad?
Though I'm also gonna say from my time living in Brisbane I found Australia, especially the rural parts to be a pretty Macho culture overall when compared with Western Europe (still loved it there, just noting the difference in culture)

 

[Oddish]

I was a child of the 70's and 80's, and it wasn't that bad. Tears and sensitivity were starting to be more tolerated by then.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yikes, you make the 80s sound like Mad Max, was it really that bad?
Though I'm also gonna say from my time living in Brisbane I found Australia, especially the rural parts to be a pretty Macho culture overall when compared with Western Europe (still loved it there, just noting the difference in culture)

It was a belief more than a reality.

As we got older, and actually met gay people, everything became less life and death, than when I was 10.