Did David Marcus ever meet Jim Kirk before TWOK?

[JonnyQuest037]

The movie is a bit ambiguous on this point. Kirk doesn't recognize David when they beam down to Regula ("I'm Doctor Marcus!"), but David does make a reference to "that overgrown boy scout" his mother Carol used to hang out with, which would seem to indicate that they could have met. David obviously doesn't know that Kirk is his father until late in the film, but do you think they could have met sometime before TWOK?

It's also interesting to note that Carol has met both Spock and McCoy in the past. Anyone think that a TOS or TMP-era Enterprise may have had a mission that took them to Regula I?

 

[Captrek]

David obviously doesn't know that Kirk is his father until late in the film

I have a copy of a “shooting script” that’s made up of pages from several drafts. It has a number of interesting ideas that didn’t make the final cut. One draft depicted the moment when David finds out that Kirk is his father. It’s right after Kirk and his party beam into the Genesis Cave, and David attacks. He has the upper hand and says he’s going to kill Kirk. Carol tells him he’s about to murder his own father. Kirk takes advantage of the distraction and disarms him.

<Funnybot>Awkwaaard!</Funnybot>

 

[Therin of Andor]

David obviously doesn't know that Kirk is his father until late in the film, but do you think they could have met sometime before TWOK?

It seemed to me that Kirk probably met David several times as a baby and toddler, after which Kirk and Carol became estranged.

There is a fairly good ST novel, "Faces of Fire" (1992) by Michael Jan Friedman, which spells out the early history. Bibi Besche herself narrates the Simon & Schuster Audioworks abridgement.

It's also interesting to note that Carol has met both Spock and McCoy in the past. Anyone think that a TOS or TMP-era Enterprise may have had a mission that took them to Regula I?

No. No one seems to know their way around the lab. But if Carol was the "blonde lab technician" Kirk knew (and almost married), as referenced in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", then it's highly likely that Carol was at least acquainted with Spock and McCoy.

 

[Harvey]

David obviously doesn't know that Kirk is his father until late in the film

I have a copy of a “shooting script” that’s made up of pages from several drafts. It has a number of interesting ideas that didn’t make the final cut. One draft depicted the moment when David finds out that Kirk is his father. It’s right after Kirk and his party beam into the Genesis Cave, and David attacks. He has the upper hand and says he’s going to kill Kirk. Carol tells him he’s about to murder his own father. Kirk takes advantage of the distraction and disarms him.

They shot that; I recently saw that scene in rough cut form. Alas, Butrick's performance in the scene is terrible. Comparing the rough cut version to the theatrically released one, in fact, it's fairly evident that his part was reduced considerably (possibly due to performance issues).

 

[JarodRussell]

David obviously doesn't know that Kirk is his father until late in the film

I have a copy of a “shooting script” that’s made up of pages from several drafts. It has a number of interesting ideas that didn’t make the final cut. One draft depicted the moment when David finds out that Kirk is his father. It’s right after Kirk and his party beam into the Genesis Cave, and David attacks. He has the upper hand and says he’s going to kill Kirk. Carol tells him he’s about to murder his own father. Kirk takes advantage of the distraction and disarms him.

<Funnybot>Awkwaaard!</Funnybot>

That's also in the novel.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It seemed to me that Kirk probably met David several times as a baby and toddler, after which Kirk and Carol became estranged.

Seems logical. Kirk meets his kid, but David would be too young to remember him more than vaguely. Works for me.

There is a fairly good ST novel, "Faces of Fire" (1992) by Michael Jan Friedman, which spells out the early history. Bibi Besche herself narrates the Simon & Schuster Audioworks abridgement.

Knew of that book, but I've never read it. Friedman's ST work has been hit & miss with me.

It's also interesting to note that Carol has met both Spock and McCoy in the past. Anyone think that a TOS or TMP-era Enterprise may have had a mission that took them to Regula I?

No. No one seems to know their way around the lab. But if Carol was the "blonde lab technician" Kirk knew (and almost married), as referenced in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", then it's highly likely that Carol was at least acquainted with Spock and McCoy.

Good point about the Regula I lab being unfamiliar to the Enterprise crew. Yeah, in my mind Carol absolutely is the blonde lab technician that Gary Mitchell references in WNMHGB. It's very easy to imagine Kirk nearly marrying her, especially with a child in the picture. I wonder if the references to Carol knowing Spock and McCoy were remnants of when her character was intended to be Janet Wallace from "The Deadly Years"?

 

[Captrek]

It seemed to me that Kirk probably met David several times as a baby and toddler, after which Kirk and Carol became estranged.

Seems logical. Kirk meets his kid, but David would be too young to remember him more than vaguely. Works for me.

I’m under the impression that Carol took off without telling Kirk she was pregnant, and he didn’t find out until sometime later. That’s how I understand this dialog:

KIRK: Why didn't you tell me?

CAROL: How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father.

 

[Therin of Andor]

KIRK: Why didn't you tell me (that he was now a doctorate-level scientist working with you)?

could be a possible extrapolation of that line.

 

[T'Girl]

Kirk had to ask Carol if the Doctor Marcus that he just met (fought) was David, as in "The David."

Also it would seem that Kirk and Carol were in contact (perhaps not face to face) since one left the other, Kirk appears to have had a direct connection to Project Genesis, from both the fact that Carol called him to protest the project being taken away from her and also from the segment of the briefing tape with Kirk that played in the beginning of TVH.

He might have been the admiral in oversight of the Starfleet side of the project, Carol might have approached Kirk years before to help her get funding approval from the Federation, also maybe a professional recommendation from Kirk. A endorsment from a high ranking and decorated officer like Admiral Kirk could only have helped.

Even in the 23rd century somethings don't change. It who you know.

 

[Captrek]

KIRK: Why didn't you tell me (that he was now a doctorate-level scientist working with you)?

could be a possible extrapolation of that line.

That could be what Kirk means, but it doesn’t seem to be how Carol understands the line, given her answer. It’s not like telling Kirk about David working on the Genesis project would have resulted in Kirk swooping in, pulling him off the project and taking him on some crazy adventure into the Great Barrier, and even if it could, David’s old enough to be making his own choices now. Carol seems to be talking about David as a child.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Carol seems to be talking about David as a child.

Sure. Kirk could mean "Why didn't you tell me... (what he was up to?)", which would apply at any interval in David's upbringing. Carol kept quiet because she didn't want Kirk being interested in David's life. At any point along the continuum.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

The line is "Why didn't you tell him?" Hence Carol's explanation of wanting David with her, not with his father in space.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The line is "Why didn't you tell him?" Hence Carol's explanation of wanting David with her, not with his father in space.

The script at http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Trek-II-The-Wrath-of-Khan.html says:

KIRK
Carol. Is that true?

She nods --

KIRK
(continuing) Why didn't you tell me?

DAVID
She's making it up! My father was Professor --

CAROL
David, you're just making this harder --

TERRELL
I'm afraid it's even harder than you think, Doctor.


At http://corky.net/scripts/theWrathOfKhan.html the version says:

KIRK
(continuing, to Carol) I did what you wanted. I stayed away. Why didn't you tell me?

CAROL
How can you ask me that? Were we together? Were we going to be? You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father.

Kirk turns away, overcome. She watches him.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Maybe I'm not hearing right, but seeing the film in 1982 and reviewing the scene before I posted above, I hear "him", not "me". The subtitles on the Director's Cut DVD read "him" as well.

Not disputing some drafts of the script read "me" but in context of the scene as it stands, "him" makes much more sense.

 

[JarodRussell]

LOL, so much debate about a single line.

 

[Rulius]

LOL, so much debate about a single line.

Welcome to the TrekBBS!

 

[Freman]

I'm pretty sure Kirk knew about David existing, I just don't think Carol told him he was David's dad. That's pretty much the only way you can logically take the "Why didn't you tell me?" line. I mean, you're pretty much just grasping at straws with anything else.

I don't know why anyone would possibly think it means anything other than that.

 

[Kamdan]

Were can we see the rough cut Harvey spoke of?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

IIRC, I think they reshot portions of that scene to change the outcome of the Kirk/David fight and make it a little more explicit as to whether Kirk knew about David or not. They probably looped a few lines in post production, too.

 

[Harvey]

Were can we see the rough cut Harvey spoke of?

I saw it in a film archive. Generally it's pretty hard to distribute such material, due to copyright restrictions.