• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Did CBS Steal the Tardigrade Idea?

Also, throwing tantrums and calling people liars when you have no arguments is not really needed in a discussion either, might wanna think on that too ;)

Well, first, I do have an argument, and I've made it several times, so there's another lie, and since you did lie, right there, would it be beyond the pale to call it a lie?

Face it, dodge, you're simply not interested in discussion. We almost had one, but then you refused to own up to your own claims.
 
Well, first, I do have an argument, and I've made it several times, so there's another lie, and since you did lie, right there, would it be beyond the pale to call it a lie?

'twas a general statement, if you recognized yourself in it how's that a lie? :p
 
Coincidently, J. Michael Straczynski occassionally suggested exactly that vis-a-vis DS9 and B5. Guess what, legal action went exactly... nowhere. A clue where this might go, perhaps?

Legal action was ever started, no one filed or tried to file any suits.

I think it's just about possible that DSC producers might have heard rumours about tardigrades being used in a space travel game and extrapolated that into their own version of how the tardigrade works in DSC.

It's possible sure, but let's play the probability game here. Did the producers of a major sci fi franchise get their ideas from current and highly visible real world science which has been popularised by a well known celebrity or an obscure computer game which most of us had never heard of before?

the simple fact is anyone with a remotely passing interest in pop science would have been well aware that tardigrades in space was firmly in the public consciousness long before DSC, why would two entirely unrelated products happening to use such a high profile idea independently of each other raise eyebrows?

That is a lie. I respond to relevant parts of posts for which I have a reply. There's nothing random or incorrect or dishonest about it, and that you'd use that to cover your evasiveness is nothing short of despicable. Either support your accusation that I have a "team" -- especially after I've specifically said that I don't side with the accuser here -- or retract it.

Wow, overstated much?

I'd say it's more likely than not a coincidence. It's just that the use of the tardigrade is very damned specific. The other elements, even if individually weak, only add to the suspicion.

See, that's a good starting point to have a discussion. Where would you draw the line? And does it require a specific element or a convergence of elements?

To be honest, it seems to me this is all so generic that labelling it as anything more than a coincidence of the sort that was not only likely but probable that it would pretty much render any and all mainstream sci fi plagiarism. Tardigrades (or similar creations) are almost as ubiquitous in the public awareness now as time travel, alternate realities and FTL, with the added defence that they actually exist.

Really not seeing the guy's case except as a publicity platform, a strategy which seems to be working out pretty well for him.
 
The phrase has nothing to do with how many words you use, and congratulations for dodging my main point.
Yeah, when you ignore every element but one, you can claim that there isn't one.

Wow, I'm sure what's to follow will be a reasonable analysis of the situation.

You can't be serious.
Gee, I wish. But you're continuing to dodge my points and questions, mate. It's becoming pretty blatant by now. Why don't you give it a try?

Hopefully if I ever disagree with you I can just say, as I will say right now, that your arguments are BS, leave it at that, and you won't think I'm ignoring your points.

I responded to the things that made me want to respond. I don't see why that's a problem. By the way, you didn't actually respond to all _my_ points, so why is it ok for you but not for me?
Ok, I see you have no intention of supporting your claims. You got caught making things up about me, and you're trying to avoid admitting to it.
That is a lie. I respond to relevant parts of posts for which I have a reply. There's nothing random or incorrect or dishonest about it, and that you'd use that to cover your evasiveness is nothing short of despicable. Either support your accusation that I have a "team" -- especially after I've specifically said that I don't side with the accuser here -- or retract it.
No one's done that. Stop making things up.

Like, seriously, there's no need for this sort of dishonesty in a discussion like this.
Well, first, I do have an argument, and I've made it several times, so there's another lie, and since you did lie, right there, would it be beyond the pale to call it a lie?

Face it, dodge, you're simply not interested in discussion. We almost had one, but then you refused to own up to your own claims.
Belz, I'm tired of every other discussion you get involved in proceeding the same way, with you accusing people of misrepresenting or lying about you. If you keep having this problem with so many different people, maybe the problem is you and the way you present your arguments. But the endless pointless belligerency needs to stop immediately or you'll get an infraction.

Comments to PM. And I mean it. You can yell at me till your heart's content in a PM, but not in the thread. There's already been at least five pages of you making demands of people. Enough. Learn to discuss things more reasonably or back off.
 
Analogies are never perfect. That's not their point. It's an illustration of a point. Presumably you understood it, but I'll clarify anyway: the point is that if you have one important similarity, it might raise suspicion, but it's the fact that you have several of them, even if all but one are minor, that may convince you that something's going on. Yes, in the example it's much clearer, but that was the point: to make it unambiguous.

And my point, to make it unambiguous, is that a 'minor similarity' is not an 'important similarity'. If you agree that these similarities are truly minor, then it IS utterly disingenuous to keep trying to add them to the 'big picture' along with the other similarities that are actually significant.

See above. That is not to say that the individual elements aren't important. In fact, I'm saying that dismissing them individually misses the bigger picture.

"That's not to say that the individual elements aren't important, but we're still only allowed to talk about the big picture" - half a dozen of one, six of the other.

Also, you're *still* totally failing to acknowledge that including ridiculously pedantic 'similarities' actually harms the 'big picture' and does not enhance it in any way.

Yes they do, because although I agree that the sum total of Discovery is very dissimilar to the game Tardigrades, the basic concept of the tardigrade and how its used in the story, together with a small number of additional, similar elements, is what I find odd. I don't think that "makes no sense".

As I already said, find the tardigrade odd if you will. I disagree, but it is an easily understandable position. You have still yet to give any logical reason why any of the rest of it should ever be considered odd in the first place, though.

How about if it's an asian from Hong Kong? Does it suddenly no longer count? I don't think a "specific" amount is very useful since people could dodge lawsuits by making ridiculously small alterations.

If all we know is that it's an asian from Hong Kong, then, yes. Obviously these examples are inherently incomplete because we're not actually creating a show here. In reality, one must look at the *total* picture of the character in question and judge whether it could reasonably be considered too similar to the original. So, name, ethnicity, background, appearance, personality, position, interests, etc. If the two characters share nothing on that list, it is pathetic to act like one is a copy. If they share everything on that list, it is pathetic to act like one isn't a copy. If they share 50%+ that would be a plausible copy (but by no means certain), 70-75% a highly probable one, 25-30% or less a highly improbable one. This is also simplified somewhat since specific traits that are highly important to the original characters are more suspicious while traits that are basically throwaway knowledge that never mattered much in the original are much less suspicious.

If you're asking me for an exact determination of 'here is the line and nowhere else', then you're in the wrong discussion, because that kind of determination is way too complex and variable to ever be made in such a generic 'one size fits all' conversation and any attempt to even come close would require a much more precise style of language than is ever going to happen here.

But what we can say quite easily, without needing to tread into the exact line between fine and no longer fine, is that if the ONLY thing shared between two characters is gender and skin color or gender, skin color and hair style, then those characters are obviously WAY more different than they are similar and it is ridiculous to act like one might somehow be a copy of the other.
 
Last edited:
The only part here i see as relevant is a tardigrade that can instantaniously travel. The other characters are very similar and the dev is cherry picking.

While I hate the, let's make an analogy. If I set a show on a spaceship and simply have a white character with pointed ears is that enough to be a copy? Doubt it. Lots of while characters with pointed ears in literature. Now if I then also make this character and alien who is a very logical person and has no emotion now I'm running into issues.

The similarities this guy has found as just superficial and if you look at these characters as a whole they are NOT simialr to the discovery characters. He is picking the pieces that help him and ignoring the rest but that is pretty common at this stage of a legal proceeding so not faulting him for it.

However, even when we are seeing everything just from his side in his favor, the copying is not convincing for everybody and this is before CBS presents anything. That does not bode well for his case at all.

While I don't know what CBS will present I expect it will go something like. Fuller wanted to use stamets and mushrooms in the show because he was interested in the concept and from that we came up with the idea of having a drive run off of these mushrooms. We then decided we needed a way to limit its effectiveness as a way to explain why they didn't put it on every ship in starfleet and requiring a navigator seems like a good way to do that and based on recent science reports we thought a large tardigrade would make a good navigator character and then originally were going to make him a crew member and here are pictures or storyboards of those attempts and then when we were not happy with that he got re-done into just a CGI charcter which is what ultimately we seen on-screen based on the look of a real tardigrade.
 
So for grins I went through the charcters/info that the dev claims were stolen and am comparing them based on info in the dev blog. I haven't watched all the trailers so there might be more info there. these are the 6 panels he shown on his page about the lawsuit

1. A chamber with blue swirly things - yes both do have this

2. Tardigrades - yes both do have this. This has been covered in-depth

3. Yolanda - Supposedly stolen to make Burnham. Yolanda is black with messy hair and it was mentioned that she is accused of treason. From there, she is a very different character. She is not the main character of the show and here is her description.
"Yolanda is the communications engineer on Marsi-3. She is responsible for all inter planetary messages sent and received to and from Marsi-3.

Yolanda doesn't have an 'office' aboard the ship. She keeps wandering aroundMarsi-3's rooms and corridors making sure everything is under control.

Yolanda is a unique character in Epoch. Whenever she's in a room with another NPC, you can always invite her to a three-way chat."

That sounds more Uhura then Burnham which is a science officer, first offer, and was in line to become captain.

4. Aziz - supposed stolen to make Culber. Similarities is he is a gay afrian american. From there very different character and his boyfriend is long distance. Doesn't sound like culber at all.

"Aziz is the pneumatic technician onMarsi-3. Always 'rushing' to fix any problem with the system.
Aziz's boyfriend is hundreds of miles away on Titan. Communications seem to be a problem due to solar activity within the region along with Jupiter's magnetic field. He is coping with this situation by playing his favorite music instrument: The Recorder."

And then this

"At some point, Carter 'finds out' that Aziz is getting annoying and better be temporary unconscious. To do so, Carter would have to manipulate Aziz's mood or do worse things. You can knock Aziz down in two different ways, get him detained or high. Either way he would end up in sickbay unable to move, talk or even gesture anything to Dr. Chantal."

5. Supposedly stolen for stamets. Now this is where things get wierd and in the dev blogs isn;t much info on him. This is supposed to be stamets but Maciek is NOT the BF of Aziz. There was also the comment from the dev about their being a botinist of the ship and there is but that is the chacrter of carter not this guy. Not even sure there is information this character is even gay. He may look at stamets but isn't the gay BF or the botinist.

From the dev blog.
"Maciek is going to be a very interesting NPC in Tardigrades. The player will be able to take control of him in an unconventional way. His actions can be triggered in several ways either by mental manipulation and/or verbal insults."

6. Natasha - supposedly stolen for Tilly. They are both white with red hair. Again, that's about it.

"Natasha's first appearance is on Titan. She's on the Eram team which is the major rival against your nation. What was she doing on Titan and specifically on land owned by your team? ..and will she be able to buy her way out?

Are you going to be more than friends with her? Maybe -at least- to get more information about what was she doing on Titan. What about Alex? Will she be 'okay' with this situation?

You've got a lot to explain Carter. Just be careful of the women of Eram, there's a big monster lurking behind their beauty."
 
Last edited:
So for grins I went through the charcters/info that the dev claims were stolen and am comparing them based on info in the dev blog. I haven't watched all the trailers so there might be more info there. these are the 6 panels he shown on his page about the lawsuit

1. A chamber with blue swirly things - yes both do have this

2. Tardigrades - yes both do have this. This has been covered in-depth

3. Yolanda - Supposedly stolen to make Burnham. Yolanda is black with messy hair and it was mentioned that she is accused of treason. From there, she is a very different character. She is not the main character of the show and here is her description.


That sounds more Uhura then Burnham which is a science officer, first offer, and was in line to become captain.

4. Aziz - supposed stolen to make Culber. Similarities is he is a gay afrian american. From there very different character and his boyfriend is long distance. Doesn't sound like culber at all. At some point, Carter 'finds out' that Aziz is getting annoying and better be temporary unconscious. To do so, Carter would have to manipulate Aziz's mood or do worse things.



And then this



5. Supposedly stolen for stamets. Now this is where things get wierd and in the dev blogs isn;t much info on him. This is supposed to be stamets but Maciek is NOT the BF of Aziz. There was also the comment from the dev about their being a botinist of the ship and there is but that is the chacrter of carter not this guy. Not even sure there is information this character is even gay. He may look at stamets but isn't the gay BF or the botinist.

From the dev blog.


6. Natasha - supposedly stolen for Tilly. They are both white with red hair. Again, that's about it.
I recently did some research and this is pretty much all correct, except that neither Culber nor Aziz are African Americans. Aziz is from the Middle East (which according to Wikipedia is a "transcontinential region") and is not an American citizen (at least as far as I have researched). Culber's origins are unknown, but his actor has Puerto Rican heritage, so if this applies to the character he would just be an American.
 
I recently did some research and this is pretty much all correct, except that neither Culber nor Aziz are African Americans. Aziz is from the Middle East (which according to Wikipedia is a "transcontinential region") and is not an American citizen (at least as far as I have researched). Culber's origins are unknown, but his actor has Puerto Rican heritage, so if this applies to the character he would just be an American.

Good info. I was going just off looks which I'll admit is not a good way to go about it but looks are what the dev is claiming were stolen because there is nothing in the personality of these characters that sounds similar at all.
 
Do you mean the Discovery production?
If Discovery was just an attempt to just mooch money, it'd be this pile of shite:

the-orville.jpg


Step up your shade game. It's crap.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top