Did Captain Keogh get his due?

[Prax]

I agree. Of course Keogh was disembarking nonessential personnel; it seems like a the kind of thing that regulations or general orders would cover before engaging in hostilities. The captain’s invitation for Dax to take up an exciting career in fleet operations was sort of, I don’t know, a joke. Like this:
View attachment 11051
Or this:
View attachment 11052
Sarcasm was not reserved to TOS only.

yes, it's sarcasm, like "Maybe you wanna captain this mission yourself, Dax" meaning "don't tell me how to do my job" or "We Starship captains/people know what we're doing"

Obviously it was sarcasm, otherwise we would think he was actually inviting her to join a starship, and it would have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and thus irrelevant to whether he offloaded the kids. If he did offload all the kids and civilians, it would be the very first time. It is clearly not procedure to do so.

Koegh and the Oddysey for the purposes of this story, represent Picard and the Enterprise. This is for a number of reasons, like to show how scary the Dominion is by blowing up the famous hero ship with ease, or showing that "this ain't your TNG"

Dax's line raises its own question. She says YOU WERE planning to... WEREN'T YOU? She says it this way, because Picard(and every other captain we know of in this situation) never ever does. Picard takes the children into every battle, or any sticky situation, The Neutral Zone, Romulans, Klingons, etc, every time. Even tracking down the Borg and creating a weapon to destroy an invading cube- kids come with.

The other Galaxy class in "Contagion," kids/families come with and all die.

Even Sisko's former starship went into battle with the civilians and kids aboard, and his wife and many others died.

So you the big bad Galaxy class show up, with the experienced veteran and supremely confident(and possibly intended to come off as arrogant) Captain Koegh, who acts a lot like Picard, flies into the gamma quadrant with the attitude that "We'll give em a show of force. We're gonna try to get this straightened out." He has no idea what's coming; that his weapons and shields are useless.

Edit: interesting side not-

"Jem Hadar" aired just a couple of weeks after "All Good Things...," the hugely watched TNG finale seen by millions and millions of people. This was like the peak of Berman era Star Trek and the Enterprise D was the big star ship, Picard the star captain.

 

[Sidewinder]

Yes, because a Starfleet captain wouldn‘t be expected to drop their professionalism and give in to despair, not even in final moments. I think you’ve been inspired by the dramatic license of frozen-Chang and the Duras sisters awaiting their inevitable destruction, but Robert Hewitt Wolfe’s (possibly disputed) thinking behind-the-scenes was that Keogh and the Odyssey were just as good as Picard and the Enterprise, and look how easily the Jem’Hadar won!

I get that, but I wasn't saying give in to despair. I was thinking along the lines of Kirk in "Into Darkness" when he knew that they were certain to die at the hands of Marcus and The USS Vengeance, just simply saying "I'm sorry".

I just think that the emotion would have been there a little bit more seeing the captain go down with his ship rather than just having his communication cut off.

 

[Sidewinder]

Hmm I have to question whether that deserves death as his "due," but thank you for the reply.

I didn't say that.

Man, I knew I stayed away from here for a reason. You guys are kind of dicks.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

You guys are kind of dicks.

If I misunderstood your OP, I will look at it again. But those kinds of comments are absolutely unnecessary.

 

[Sidewinder]

If I misunderstood your OP, I will look at it again. But those kinds of comments are absolutely unnecessary.

You're right. I apologize. I'm running kind of hot right now between work and home. I'll pull it back. Sorry...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't know where people keep getting the notion that Keogh deserved to die. That is clearly not the case.

Keogh may be a bit arrogant, but he and his crew are clearly supposed to be examples of the best that Starfleet has to offer. The whole point of the destruction of the Odyssey is that Starfleet, even at its most badass, has absolutely no defense against an enemy as ruthless as the Jem'Hadar. This is a threat unlike anything that Starfleet has ever faced, up to and including the Borg.

At that point, even the best and most decorated captain in the history of Starfleet would have lost. So there is clearly no shame in Keogh's death. He didn't have a chance.

 

[Arpy]

I get what you’re saying Prax, but I think the point of the exchange, bringing up the unnecessary personnel at all in the episode, is to get rid of them. If they just wanted a fully crewed ship to blow, they would have shown it without mentioning the other personnel at all.

The exchange was Dax teasing him about whether he was competent enough to offload the personnel. He teased back but the impression I got was that doing so was a no brainer, and no one else decided to argue the point, as they likely would have as the Odyssey was going in to engage an enemy with (as Keogh remarked) “sharp teeth.”

 

[Tosk]

Especially as this isn't an unexpected encounter. They are at a station and have time to prepare, unlike many other situations where civilians are put in harm's way. That said, they would have been better off never introducing saucer-sep in the first place as it often gets willfully ignored.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I would think he'd be trying to find options to survive right up until the end.

I've always seen him as a Picardlike stand-in to shock the audience into realizing TNG story rules are off the table. So I imagine he'd react the same way Picard does in Cause and Effect.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I've no idea if that's true or not, which is what makes it so good.

To paraphrase Leonard Nimoy from the simpsons: It's true and by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But, they're entertaining lies. And in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer is: no.

Seriously though, I read it while trying to waste time on Memory Beta.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

It's clearly the opposite being implied

Why are you being such a digificwriter about this? Keogh wasn't even willing to take the crew of DS9 to face the Dominion because he felt that with the exception of Kira and O'brien they were all pretty useless.

If Keogh wasn't willing to have inexperienced officers in a combat situation, why would he trundle off with a bunch of civilians?

 

[Prax]

Why are you being such a digificwriter about this? Keogh wasn't even willing to take the crew of DS9 to face the Dominion because he felt that with the exception of Kira and O'brien they were all pretty useless.

If Keogh wasn't willing to have inexperienced officers in a combat situation, why would he trundle off with a bunch of civilians?

What's a digific writer?

 

[Timo]

If the exchange is to suggest anything in-universe, it probably is that Keogh must be a decent guy. After all, we know for a fact that Dax (at least whenever it's a guy) is not, so the two being on the opposite sides on anything is a point for the bald man.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Surprised there's this much debate. It was always obvious to me that Keogh did indeed offload the civilians and non-essentials to the station, and rightly slapped down Dax for her snarky captainsplaining.

 

[Arpy]

Why are you being such a digificwriter about this?

What is this digificwriter of which you speak? Is it part of the coming war with the AI’s?

 

[USS Firefly]

After all, we know for a fact that Dax (at least whenever it's a guy) is not, so the two being on the opposite sides on anything is a point for the bald man.

I agree, what we have heard of Curzon Dax is that he mostly wasn't a nice or honest man, like sleeping with the wife of your friend

 

[kkt]

If the exchange is to suggest anything in-universe, it probably is that Keogh must be a decent guy. After all, we know for a fact that Dax (at least whenever it's a guy) is not, so the two being on the opposite sides on anything is a point for the bald man.
i

You don't think the male Daxes are decent guys? They seem pretty decent, with the exception of Joran. Curzon got pretty full of himself sometimes, but was still pretty decent overall - or Sisko wouldn't have been friends with him.

 

[tomalak301]

I think it would have been nice if Keogh was mentioned again somewhere in the series future. His was the first ship to really engage the Jem'Hadar.

 

[Timo]

...That we know of. One wonders if the Jem'Hadar actually were responsible for the losses of those Starfleet ships they listed in "The Search" when posturing at Kira, or whether said ships happily returned a few months later and wondered what the fuss was all about?

It's not just that Keogh looks, talks and walks like Picard and flies the same sort of ship. His crew also does the same things: they try to technobabble themselves out of the battle (but fail), they repair catastrophic damage on the run, they stay put against all tactical wisdom in order to protect the innocent, and they leave when they're done instead of trying to win. It really is like watching a TNG episode from the other side. Up to and including the bit where Picard runs into an old obnoxious nemesis at DS9 but nevertheless goes on to selflessly save the adversary's folks, even agreeing to let the adversary symbolically assist to keep her happy.

Timo Saloniemi