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Did Anyone Ever Figure Out How...(from GEN)

Dunno about that. Small, weak but cloak-capable ships have always been described as deadly threats to the big Enterprise. It was that way in "Balance of Terror". It was that way in ST3:TSfS and ST6:TUC. At least the Klingons themselves thought it would be that way in TNG "A Matter of Honor".

Back in the days of the dramatic inspiration for this sort of combat, the submarine was a deadly threat to the largest warships not only because of the invisibility thing, but because a torpedo was a decisive one-shot-kills weapon. The same was true of the plasma cloud in "Balance of Terror". In ST3, the Klingons seemed to fire to disable only (the new gunner dare not have used lethal force, considering what happened to his predecessor), but the full power of the BoP weapons might still have been a threat even to a fully shielded hero ship. In ST6, Chang was toying with his prey and still essentially pounding the hero ship to pieces.

Granted that most of the TNG era combat shows torpedoes as non-decisive weapons against shielded ships. Perhaps shielding has improved in the intervening almost-century? But torpedoes still remain decisive against unshielded targets: a single one can obliterate a starship or a massive space station, as in "Unnatural Selection" or "Conundrum". It would make sense, then, that Soran's shield trick would render the E-D very, very vulnerable.

Looking at this from the other angle, we don't have clear proof that capital ship weapons could truly destroy a BoP with trivial ease. The only time anything like that happens is in "Redemption" where the main gun of the Klingon attack cruiser blows up a large BoP with a single shot - but that's an unshielded BoP.

It would seem that size doesn't matter nearly as much as shield status does. The relative weakness of the BoP against the E-D would have been a moot point once the E-D lost her shields. It would be a bit like two knights in armor duking it out with rapiers instead of broadswords, banging futilely at each other for the better part of an hour - and the bigger one suddenly going stark naked. He'd be dead in seconds.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo ... I'd like to address the issue of Voyager's core not exploding in 'Day of Honor'.

The reason for the eminent 'overload' was because the tachyon particles were flooding the warp core and numerous other things were going awol when the core was connected to the rest of the ship.
The core was successfully ejected into space (at warp speed no less) which immediately cut off the tachyons from leaking into the core ... not to mention the fact that every other conduit that might have contributed to the core overload was disconnected from the core the moment they ejected it.

It's possible when you couple the external temperature of vacuum, and cutting off the source of the problem that flood the core with tachyons and other problems stabilized the core (at least stabilized it from exploding).

The writers making the ejection system never work was stupid on the other hand.
The Enterprise-D could have been suffered damage as a result of their battle with the BoP and ultimately the crew could have been transferred to a Sovereign class starship which could have been renamed to Enterpise-E as a result of their outstanding service thus far ... but it didn't happen.
The Klingons should have lost within the first 15 to 20 seconds of the battle.
Riker was written as such a moron and incompetent idiot in that part ... as were everyone else.
 
Dunno about that. Small, weak but cloak-capable ships have always been described as deadly threats to the big Enterprise. It was that way in "Balance of Terror". It was that way in ST3:TSfS and ST6:TUC. At least the Klingons themselves thought it would be that way in TNG "A Matter of Honor".

In the movie itself both Picard and Be'tor say that the Enterprise is at an advantage in a battle and that they are not a match.

The E-D can fire a maximum slavo of 10 torpedoes and has 5 phaser banks that can fire forwards, 11 exposed in total in connected flight mode.

The E-D stood toe-to-toe with a Borg cube (where their shields are pretty much useless) and survived without losing much more than equally useless Starboard Power Coupling and Borg weapons are more powerful than anything the Klingons or Federation has.

The Enterprise-D should NOT have been lost to a Bird of Prey. All they had to do was unload everything they have on the BOP, a spread of 10 torpedoes, fire off all of their phasers and hell, MOVE and perform some evasion tactics and they would've made very, very short work of the BOP.
 
In the movie itself both Picard and Be'tor say that the Enterprise is at an advantage in a battle and that they are not a match.

Apparently, though, Soran's modifications more than negate that advantage.

The E-D can fire a maximum slavo of 10 torpedoes and has 5 phaser banks that can fire forwards, 11 exposed in total in connected flight mode.

And typical WWII battleships had 6-9 guns of 12 to 16 inch bore, plus dozens of five-inchers, but still succumbed to single shots from submarines.

Borg weapons are more powerful than anything the Klingons or Federation has.

This hasn't really been demonstrated in any Borg battle, though. The Borg shield-drainer bolt in "Q Who?" was a nasty surprise, as was the cutting laser, but Klingon weapons have inflicted similar damage when given the chance.

All they had to do was unload everything they have on the BOP, a spread of 10 torpedoes

Impossible by the usual Trek combat rules: torpedo volleys at short range are as dangerous to the firing ship as they are to the target.

fire off all of their phasers

They did. The BoP shrugged it off. Probably although not explicitly thanks to Soran's wizardy again.

More exactly, they fired a single main phaser as their opening volley. Starships basically never fire multiple phasers, suggesting that the most powerful way to deliver lethal force is to channel all of it through the one emitter that is optimally placed.

They kept on firing, as the background sounds indicate. The result? "Our shields are holding!"...

and hell, MOVE and perform some evasion tactics

That's what they were shown doing. Not much good against something as agile as a BoP...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Back in the days of the dramatic inspiration for this sort of combat, the submarine was a deadly threat to the largest warships not only because of the invisibility thing, but because a torpedo was a decisive one-shot-kills weapon.
Against other submarines and smaller ships, certainly. But it sometimes took multiple torpedo hits and bombs to take out a battleship or aircraft carrier.
 
But a single volley would usually do the trick, as with the unlucky Barham which blew up from an estimated three simultaneous hits. And Conte di Cavour was indeed sunk by just a single air-dropped torpedo.

And a single torpedo effectively killed the Bismarck, even if multiple heavy shells were needed to sink her afterwards. The first Klingon hits at or near Main Engineering may have been just as lethal in ST:GEN.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Did anyone come up with a rational explanation for how Starfleet's most advanced starship could be taken down by an ancient B'rel class Klingon Bird of Prey? I never bought the explanation that 'Oh, the shields were down.'


The answer is practially spelled out for you right there in the movie. That's like asking "did anyone ever figure out how they got the whales back to Earth?".




Would a saucer separation during battle be feasible?

Worked in "Best of Both Worlds -- Part 2".
 
But a single volley would usually do the trick, as with the unlucky Barham which blew up from an estimated three simultaneous hits. And Conte di Cavour was indeed sunk by just a single air-dropped torpedo.

And a single torpedo effectively killed the Bismarck, even if multiple heavy shells were needed to sink her afterwards. The first Klingon hits at or near Main Engineering may have been just as lethal in ST:GEN.

Timo Saloniemi

Good old Timo I was about to mention the Barham. One of the most succesful submarine attacks of the whole war. Of course in the end the Ark Royal was sunk by just one U-Boat torpedo.

Of course still by far the biggest threat to a major warship is a well-handled submarine. Patrick Robinson has made a whole career out of writing books about it. If a submarine were to get within striking distance of a US carrier with a modern torpedo with a nuclear warhead, the ship would be vaporized. It would require a truly massive air assault to achieve the same effect.
 
I think it was the USS Lexingtion (the original) that was destroyed by secondary damage after the battle despite all the work the damage control teams did.

In the minority here but I honesty believe that core ejection under those circumstances is simply not going to work, it would take too long to purge all the fuel from the pipes/conduits and everything.

It could be argued that the tragic loss of the Yamato and the Enterprise D spurred Starfleet to develop better safety systems and a more user-friendly warp-core ejection method. However, the existing Galaxy Class ships couldn't benifit from this improvement because the new cores operate on a different principle.

The core in Insuckrection and the enhancing of the forcefield around the core in Nem is a good example. The lessions learned from the loss of the Enterprise-D lead to policy changes and more importantly improved technology... visible changes. The force-field may have been in place during Generations but due to the fact it was using a different/older principle it might not have been up to the task asked of it. The damage that occured might have been beyond it's design basis. Same of the backup cooling systems, secondary magnetic interlocks and all the other backup systems.

Pure luck plays a major role in many battles. A lucky hit to a critical junction damages the containment system. The strain of running the remaining generators places a huge burden on the containment generator cooling system. LaForge is in the process of shutting down the core when the system fails. Rather than attempt a risky procedure that has been known to fail in the past he recomends they get out of dodge.

As I said in another thread I would have liked to see Laforge and some other characters stay behind to try to repair the core/eject it... they fail/make it worse and Riker swoops in with the saucer to beam them off just as the engines explode, knocking the ship out of orbit.
 
In my opinion, the BOP in Generations is nothing like submarine. It's clearly uncloaked the whole time while firing it's weapons. The attack isn't necessarily a cloaking device hit and run either. They were uncloaked before opening fire. It's more like a PT Boat firing it's deck gun at a Battleship. Star Trek's combat is nothing like the real world, the big guns on a Galaxy (big ol phaser strips) are every bit as accurate, if not, more accurate than a BOP. Not to mention the sheer magnitude stronger a single strip likely is than the whole armament of that BOP. The Enterprise-D would have won, were this a different movie.

In the Wrath of Khan, the Enterprise (No bloody A, B, C, D, or E) takes a direct hit to the engine room at nearly point blank, and the worst that happens is that main power is cut off. In Generations, a few torpedo hits nowhere near the warp core (On a ship many magnitudes larger, no less!) cause it to breach, disregarding the numerous emergency cutoffs and saftey systems that would be in place. It only breaches for the convenience of the writers. In my opinion, there is no way anyone can justify a BOP, a very outdated one might I add, defeating the Enterprise-D. Especially with Riker, a maverick tactician in command. It simply had to happen, so that we could have a "cooler" Enterprise. In fact, Starfleet engineering in general has become unsafe, fragile and just plain stupid, all for the convenience of the plot.
 
In TUC I always thought that the ending battle, where the Ent-A was having holes punched into the saucer by Chang's torpedoes, was very inconsistent with the other series and movies. In other instances, the torpedoes exploded after making contact with the hull. That should have happened in this case as well.

I also don't think that separating the ship in the middle of the battle would be a good idea, since it seems like the ship would be defenseless while the separation is going on.
 
It's possible when you couple the external temperature of vacuum, and cutting off the source of the problem that flood the core with tachyons and other problems stabilized the core (at least stabilized it from exploding).

I don't think the vacuum of space is a very good heat sink. The residual heat would have stayed. But removal of the tachyons may have been beneficial.
 
In TUC I always thought that the ending battle, where the Ent-A was having holes punched into the saucer by Chang's torpedoes, was very inconsistent with the other series and movies. In other instances, the torpedoes exploded after making contact with the hull. That should have happened in this case as well.

It seemed fairly consistent with TWoK, where torpedoes could blow off nacelles, among other things.
 
Here's a thought: the Klingon weapons could be remodulated to pass through the sheilding. If the Klingons could see Enterprise's weapon modulation (which LaForge likely gave them an opportunity to do), couldn't they remodulate their sheilds to be far more effective?
 
You would think after all their experiences with the Borg and their adaptive weapons that Riker would just automatically order Data or Worf to modulate the shield frequency. Of course, Riker had no clue about Geordi's VISOR, so it's equally possible the Duras sisters would know each frequency change as soon as it was made. The film doesn't address this at all, mostly because it would just slow down the inevitable big fiery kaboom.
 
The thing is once they started shifting the shield modulation the modifications to Geordi's VISOR would do the Duras no good. That's done randomly by computer and in the battle the odds of Geordi seeing every shift are slim and none.
 
Since they learned what they learned from the Borg, why aren't shield modulations automatic and constant now? And that it wouldn't require an order to happen.
 
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