Did anyone actually enjoy the Prophet/Pahwraith story?

[Bishop76]

Ultimately, I think most of season 7 was a stupid, incoherent mess, but I still just can't cotton to the female founder just shrugging and stopping the fight. It was far too much of a last minute Ron Moore ending. Kind of like how the last season of nuBSG was a stupid, incoherent mess that ended horribly.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

You know, I think part of the reason I'm totally fine with it all is that I haven't seen much that's any better. Like I said, the Dukat/Winn thing clearly has its flaws. It's just perfectly passable for me by television standards.

Maybe once I finish B5 I'll come around and realize it did such a better job at ending itself, but so far no sci-fi series hellbent on telling a serialized story has bested DS9 for me.

 

[TheGodBen]

Aw, hell, I wouldn't even say that. I never saw her as emerging a changed person. The woman was calm in the depths of the abyss she'd gotten into and tranquil because, well hell, at least her people would live.

The problem is that she had descended so far into evil territory earlier in the episode when she ordered the genocide of the Cardassian race, that to see her act calm and rational 15 minutes later was an about-face that came across as brainwashing. The perception of that scene by many people, including myself when I first saw it, was that it was a cheap win that came from nowhere, and I think that perception wouldn't be there had she been a little more upset about being forced to surrender to save her species.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

You quoted Deckerd...

Anyway, I can totally respect anyone who had issue with it. For me, both at ten when it premiered and at 23, I saw it as a huge about-face triggered by her overall delight that Odo was returning and the Founders would live.

Cold, hard bitch that she was, the Female Changeling did swing back and forth from time to time.

 

[Bishop76]

Maybe once I finish B5 I'll come around and realize it did such a better job at ending itself, but so far no sci-fi series hellbent on telling a serialized story has bested DS9 for me.

I'm not going to say it's a guarantee you'll agree, but B5 is the best. No question. Season 5 of B5 has issues, but the final episode of the series... well, it's amazing and subtle and perfect. Far better than DS9.

 

[TheGodBen]

You quoted Deckerd...

My bad. I was going to respond to both of you, but then I saw that you said pretty much everything I was going to so I decided just to respond to you and I messed up the quote tags.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Maybe once I finish B5 I'll come around and realize it did such a better job at ending itself, but so far no sci-fi series hellbent on telling a serialized story has bested DS9 for me.

I'm not going to say it's a guarantee you'll agree, but B5 is the best. No question. Season 5 of B5 has issues, but the final episode of the series... well, it's amazing and subtle and perfect. Far better than DS9.

I'm lookin' forward to sleepin' in light, good sir!

You quoted Deckerd...

My bad. I was going to respond to both of you, but then I saw that you said pretty much everything I was going to so I decided just to respond to you and I messed up the quote tags.

It was worth it to get a God all alien-blushing.

 

[TheGodBen]

I'm not going to say it's a guarantee you'll agree, but B5 is the best. No question. Season 5 of B5 has issues, but the final episode of the series... well, it's amazing and subtle and perfect. Far better than DS9.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light

But the final episode of B5 was a completely different animal as it focused on the characters, all the show's arcs were already tied up. It was a great finale, I gave it a perfect 10/10 when I reviewed it, but it's not really comparable to WYLB.

 

[Bishop76]

I'm lookin' forward to sleepin' in light, good sir!

I'm not a terribly overly emotional person, but I was sobbing by the end of Sleeping in Light.

Anyway, sorry for the side track...

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Yeah, I apologize, too. Gotta remember to keep my thread inside my thread!

 

[Bishop76]

I'm not going to say it's a guarantee you'll agree, but B5 is the best. No question. Season 5 of B5 has issues, but the final episode of the series... well, it's amazing and subtle and perfect. Far better than DS9.

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light

But the final episode of B5 was a completely different animal as it focused on the characters, all the show's arcs were already tied up. It was a great finale, I gave it a perfect 10/10 when I reviewed it, but it's not really comparable to WYLB.

I do agree to some extent that they're not comparable, but I think that they could have cut out a lot of garbage from WYLB (the horrible clip show in Vic's comes to mind) to try to make the story work a little more. Maybe even have cut out some real stinkers from earlier in the season to concentrate on the arc a bit... like say, "Take Me Out to the Holosuite"...

Edit: Ah, shit - meant to spoiler text that - at any rate, it's not spoilerific at all really, so no harm, no foul.

 

[heavylids]

I really enjoyed this story, but it was a little rushed. Considering it was the last season, they really didn't have much time to be as patient with plot progression. 7th season of DS9 was really good, but it was kind of a clusterfuck.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The Dukat/Kai Winn sequence was vapid, vacuous, a little nauseating, more full of plot holes than a gruyere cheese and apparently on a extremely dilated timeline compared to the rest of the events.

I actually think that last part could well be possible, from an in-universe perspective. Given what we know about the Prophets and their odd relationship to the space-time continuum, I would not be surprised if the Pah-Wraiths do indeed cause the Fire Caves to be out of step with the rest of the universe, time-wise.



As for the plotline, while I think it could have been portrayed better, from a production standpoint, I think Dukat got what he deserved for selling his soul.

I also think that "Covenant" has OUTSTANDING acting. I wouldn't trade that away.



BTW, I don't think "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" was a stinker at all. For a funny episode--it was one of the best.

 

[flemm]

Certain aspects of it, yes.

 

[ReadyAndWilling]

The Dukat/Kai Winn sequence was vapid, vacuous, a little nauseating, more full of plot holes than a gruyere cheese and apparently on a extremely dilated timeline compared to the rest of the events. Meanwhile the Dominion are overcome in the most anodyne and dull manner possible, considering their power, intelligence and resourcefulness. Meanwhile everyone else is playing gangsters on a holodeck. To say the end of the last season was a mess is an understatement.

The end of the last season is my favorite part of the entire franchise, so to say I disagree with you is an understatement.

I'm not going to bother defending the Dukat/Kai Winn sequence because it's been discussed to death and it obviously had its flaws; anyone claiming otherwise is oblivious.

Not sure why you think a battle over Cardassia is so bad, though.

the battle over cardassia was bad because it was so cliche and deus ex for the door to be opened just at the right time for kira and the crew to get through and capture the female founder

 

[Danoz]

the whole story just seemed so uhh, unnecessary? there was just so much going on with the war, seeing the war from the dominion side, seeing the war from the fed side and all of the dynamics going on at the station at quark's.

whenever anything about the prophets comes up i ALWAYS fast forward through it. i can't be the only one on this? time would have been better spent on the dominion side and the war.

did berman or any of the other writers regret including the storyline?

I appreciated most of it.

Didn’t care for the Pah Wraiths; the idea that the Phophets would have to have some malevolent counter-balance never made much sense to me. It sort of cheapened the Prophets in my eyes to a far less ambiguous “good/evil” relationship that didn’t seem to fit given the cryptic nature of the prophets and the dark, Machiavellian tone of the series. Red eyes? Evil dialogue? Cults with mass suicide? I half-expected the Bajoran avatar Gul Dukat to have shiny red skin and carry around a pitchfork.

The arch of the Prophets and “The Sisko” I actually enjoyed—it was such a major part of the show. I loved the tension between Kira’s work and her spiritual faith. I thought Kai Opaka was a strong, spiritual character—and Ben’s evolution from hesitant cynic Starfleet officer to Emissary of the prophets was gradual and well written/acted in general.

Fast-forward? Hell no. I may be critical, but it’s only because I’ve enjoyed and watched these episodes so many times that I feel comfortable doing it. Ultimately, I wouldn’t have them change a thing (though I would have some early suggestions for Voyager’s writing crew if time travel were possible…).

The Dukat/Kai Winn sequence was vapid, vacuous, a little nauseating, more full of plot holes than a gruyere cheese and apparently on a extremely dilated timeline compared to the rest of the events. Meanwhile the Dominion are overcome in the most anodyne and dull manner possible, considering their power, intelligence and resourcefulness. Meanwhile everyone else is playing gangsters on a holodeck. To say the end of the last season was a mess is an understatement.

I thought the ending made a lot of sense, given the Founder's weakness for members of their own species (and ultimately their own self-preservation). Loved the Section 31 arch.

I liked their intervention in Sacrifice of Angels and the Space Jesus Sisko thing, but red-eye Dukat and his "entire universe set in flames" rant was over the top.

I didn't have a problem with the battle - I had a problem with the female Founder just deciding to surrender. Seemed a bit too easy and cheesy.

She surrendered in order to secure the cure for the Link. The entire point of the Dominion was to secure the survival of the Link, for her to keep on fighting and allow her people to die for the sake of vengeance would have flown in the face of what the Dominion was all about. I think that it could have been portrayed better in the finale, but the core concept is sound.

This. Her people were all but doomed-- and with this exchange she would continue to live, Odo would return home, and her people would be cured. The federation terms would hardly leave them permanently occupied, either. Ultimately, given the circumstances, this wasn't a huge loss.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

About the Dukat/Winn thing... I thought she got some major karmatic retribution... The ambitious self-righteous... ahem... in bed with her worst enemy... and liking it...

 

[Myasishchev]

I didn't have a problem with the battle - I had a problem with the female Founder just deciding to surrender. Seemed a bit too easy and cheesy.

Surrender or die, though, wasn't it? That's how I recall it.

The problem is that she had descended so far into evil territory earlier in the episode when she ordered the genocide of the Cardassian race, that to see her act calm and rational 15 minutes later was an about-face that came across as brainwashing. The perception of that scene by many people, including myself when I first saw it, was that it was a cheap win that came from nowhere, and I think that perception wouldn't be there had she been a little more upset about being forced to surrender to save her species.

See, I liked that. I thought a sudden about face when presented with an opportunity for survival fit the Founders' mentality quite well, and always kept in mind that killing Cardassia was never much more to her than burning down a house ridden with termites. I'd even hesitate to call it irrational; spite is as valid a reaction in the face of annihilation as acceptance, anyway. Especially when there were a scant few (ninetiesh) unafflicted changelings still around to potentially rebuild a Great Link and perhaps a new Dominion, causing as much damage as possible to the enemies who have already consigned the vast majority of your people to death sounds perfectly reasonable to me, the twin rationales being to instill a historical fear into any future confrontation as well as to equalize as much as possible the positions of the AQ powers and the Founder remnants.

The prospect that the Founders would not be nearly annihilated took away the whole point of continuing the war, so the Founder-in-chief gave up.

Personally, I'm far more curious as to what the heck the Breen were getting out of it.

Oh, and on-topic, the Prophets stuff was sort of interesting prior to S7, and the Benny Russel stuff was always interesting and worth following up, but it derailed so rapidly it's hard to believe.

 

[Jono]

My opinion of the whole Prophets storyline changed quite a bit after I got to watch the series from start to finish. I didn't get into the series until season 6, so anything to do with the Bajoran's religion did seem to be unnecessary next to the war, but after seeing the story build over the first five seasons it changed my opinion and in general I'd say I enjoyed the whole Bajoran religion aspect of the series.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I, for one (?) approve and practice the fast forward method for the Winn/Dukat scenes. I skipped/fast forwarded most of their scenes in the series finale last time I watched it and doing that improved the episode significantly.

It's just too bad the Dukat and Sisko thing was such a big part of the end. If only they'd left well enough alone and cut it after Sisko's toast (and the memorable moments montages).