Did a admiral ever show up on tos?
- Thread starter TEH BABA
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We know commodores exist in the Archer and Kirk eras but no longer show up in the 24th century. We never got an in-universe explanation and I wonder what happened between the TOS movies and the Picard years.
The rank of Commodore was disbanded after it was felt that the rank holders were taking liberties regarding their Dress Uniform.
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Or had them take over command of garbage scows. And Starfleet's late-night shows.
I tend to view it the opposite way, myself. A fleet captain would be a non-flag officer commanding a small task force of ships, while a commodore or admiral would command a base, outpost, large fleet etc.
I only say this, cause thats what a commodore does now. It's the senior captain in a ship task force. But I'm glad someone has similar views..
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All this raises a question: who commanded Starbase 11? Was it Stone? Or Mendez? Or Stone, then Mendez? Or were they just administrators reporting to someone else?
What little we see of Starbase 11 suggests it is a substantial port facility. There is a civilian presence there, they have aesthetically appealing architecture (not just bunkers or "moonbase" style provisional facilities, etc.) and amenities (O club, apartments, concourse, etc.) There must be quite a few people living on Starbase 11 full-time. And by all indications we see, the administrators (or head administrators) are at least at commodore in rank. How many Starfleet personnel does that suggests for a typical base compliment? (A commodore would be the same rank as a brigadier general.)
What little we see of Starbase 11 suggests it is a substantial port facility. There is a civilian presence there, they have aesthetically appealing architecture (not just bunkers or "moonbase" style provisional facilities, etc.) and amenities (O club, apartments, concourse, etc.) There must be quite a few people living on Starbase 11 full-time. And by all indications we see, the administrators (or head administrators) are at least at commodore in rank. How many Starfleet personnel does that suggests for a typical base compliment? (A commodore would be the same rank as a brigadier general.)
If I remember correctly FLEET CAPTAIN was a temporary position not a rank, held for the duration of a mission.
JDW
JDW
JDW:
I tend to agree with you there, but you'll get some fierce arguments from members of this board that it was an actual rank, and that in Kirk's time, it was symbolized by three solid sleeve braids. If it were an actual rank, I think it would be between captain and commodore.
With the disappearance of the commodore rank by TNG's time, we of course saw a plethora of admirals on that and subsequent 24th century ST shows.
Red Ranger
It's never been established as to whether it's a rank or a title. Some have said it could simply be another term for captain, as in captain of the fleet, but it's always referred to as Fleet Captain. If the two ranks/positions were synonomous, the characters could just say "captain." Fleet Admiral is a separate rank from other admiralty ranks, so I think perhaps there might be some precedent for fleet captain being a rank rather than a title. Plus I've seen conjectural insignia for every single era (except ENT), and they fit well into every scheme.
That's just me.
There's also no evidence that commodores have ceased to exist in modern Trek, they just haven't been mentioned. Admirals were seldom mentioned on TOS.
That's just me.
There's also no evidence that commodores have ceased to exist in modern Trek, they just haven't been mentioned. Admirals were seldom mentioned on TOS.We've seen that other surefire starbase commander, Commodore Stone, in red shirt, so my bet would be that Stone was the true head honcho of SB 11. He's even explicitly called that in "Court Martial", while Mendez never is in "The Menagerie".
Instead, Mendez is associated with SB 11 by two facts: 1) he is present there during the adventure, and 2) he likes to sign off with "Commodore Mendez, Starbase 11". Since he wears the same colors as the starshipborne Wesley and Decker, I'd like to think of him as a starship commander himself - part of the same fraternity as Kirk and Pike, unlike Stone who'd sit in his office all the way through "The Menagerie", pushing paper and silently cursing Kirk for making a fool out of him.
Probably the goldshirt commodores like Mendez, Wesley and Decker are in control of more than just one starship, though. They could have a local flotilla at their fingertips, or general control of starship operations in a certain sector. At times, they'd reside at starbases, waiting for assignments or coordinating operations, but would not mingle in the affairs of the redshirted base commanders much. Perhaps Mendez' ship was under repairs supervised by Stone?
Timo Saloniemi
I wonder if Stone were positioned at SB 11 as the "portmaster", the officer who administers the actual facility, while Mendez simply keeps an office there from which he administers starships in his territory of space (sector?), Enterprise included. This would give Stone and Mendez very different reasons for being on the same base.
It could also be that Stone wore a red shirt because he, while being a senior officer at the base, was not the base's CO. Stone could fall under either Mendez (territory commandant) or some unseen admiral. (Komack?)
It could also be that Stone wore a red shirt because he, while being a senior officer at the base, was not the base's CO. Stone could fall under either Mendez (territory commandant) or some unseen admiral. (Komack?)
... or three blinking lights...
D'oh!
I found this in wikipedia....
Fleet Captain has appeared in the navies of Germany and the United Kingdom as an unofficial title dating back to the 18th century. During World War II, the United States Department of the Navy proposed that the rank of Fleet Captain be created for the U.S. Navy as a position between Captain and Rear Admiral. When Commodore was established in 1943, the proposal for Fleet Captain was changed in that the rank would be held by aircraft carrier captains on vessels that had multiple O-6s (captains) serving aboard. Proposals for Fleet Captain indicated the rank would display five gold stripes on a sleeve.
Fleet Captain has appeared in the navies of Germany and the United Kingdom as an unofficial title dating back to the 18th century. During World War II, the United States Department of the Navy proposed that the rank of Fleet Captain be created for the U.S. Navy as a position between Captain and Rear Admiral. When Commodore was established in 1943, the proposal for Fleet Captain was changed in that the rank would be held by aircraft carrier captains on vessels that had multiple O-6s (captains) serving aboard. Proposals for Fleet Captain indicated the rank would display five gold stripes on a sleeve.
I remember reading fan conjecture somewhere that Starbase numbers (such as 11) were determined by which sector of space the given base would be located in, hence Starbase 11 would be located in Sector 11 (or perhaps Sector 0-1-1, in TNG terms). In "Amok Time", Admiral Komack's first communique to the Enterprise is stated as speaking from "Starfleet Sector 9". Maybe Komack commanded several sectors of s space, including sectors 9 and 11, and Mendez was his point-man in Sector 11.
That's interesting, about the historical fleet captains. I think it would easily fit into the existing insignia system, if were an actual Starfleet rank
TOS - three solid stripes
TMP - not sure exactly, since this system has some quirks compared to the TOS version.
TWOK+ - captain's pin with extra arrows
TNG+ - five pips, while commodore would be a single boxed pip. The FASA RPG had five gold pips for flaptain, and five silver pips for commodore. Captains and other lower officers had silver pips.
TOS - three solid stripes
TMP - not sure exactly, since this system has some quirks compared to the TOS version.
TWOK+ - captain's pin with extra arrows
TNG+ - five pips, while commodore would be a single boxed pip. The FASA RPG had five gold pips for flaptain, and five silver pips for commodore. Captains and other lower officers had silver pips.
Kirk had, I think, three connected solid stripes with one separate, solid one by itself one space above during the early scenes of TMP.
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