Developments you'd like to see in the NTrekverse

[serenitytrek1]

IMO It all comes down to the fact that according to some women cannot express love and feelings because if they do that they're considered "weak". On the other hand there is this very radicated patriarchal idea in the star trek fandom in particular that men being defined by their interpersonal relationships are good story telling and character development (maybe because it had always been like that) Only men are allowed to show feelings without being made weak by them.

For some maybe but my reservations with Uhura's expressions of feelings in STID come from how it was done, not the fact she had feelings.

Mostly I think that the moment of entry of their ship into Kronos' atmosphere, 3 minutes eta from Harrison, was a really inappropriate moment for her to front Spock about his apparent lack of care for her feelings. This was underlined by Kirk's "are we really doing this now" which elicited a generalised snicker from the audience when I saw it and IMO made Uhura look unprofessional and foolish.

Elsewhere in the movie she did really well, but that IMO unfortunate moment was what caught my attention the most on first viewing.

I have mixed feelings on the scene with uhura's emotional outburst .however I did find it realistic in the sense that that is the way we humans behave. we humans tend to lose control at the wrong place at the wrong time it is one of our most tragic flaws.

However I don't think uhura will have had an outbust if anyone's but kirk was there. kirk was her and spock's close friend so it was not like she let loose in front of a random co-woker.


Also remember spock throwing kirk out of the ship in the first film? that was way more un professional than uhura emotional outbust. I don't see people calling spock out on that.

Also when he was an acting captain, Spock attempting murder on the bridge by strangling kirk in front of his crew mates and his dad that was way unprofessional either.

Sure Kirk provoked him by saying he did not care for his mum but uhura is in the same position as well. spock provoked her by not caring of his life and her feelings.

Lastly, how about kirk eating an apple and treating the kobayashi maru test as a joke in front of his class mates and instructors...how un professional is that?

I don't mean to bring up race/sex, sadly it is a huge factor with uhura. its like her white male counterparts gets a free pass for behaving like the flawed humans we all are but she gets put down.

a lot of people said all uhura ever did was cry. however what is so weak about crying because your captain and friend died or crying because of your boyfriend's potential death.

Didn't Kirk cry when Captain Pike died?

Spock cried when kirk died and he also cried when his planet got blown up and he watched his mum die. the tears may not have fallen from his eyes but his eyes were still filled with tears. This was the reason why he got off the captain's chair and headed to the elevator.Spock was about to burst into tears.

Why is Spock and Kirk not called weak? oh yeah...they are men.

But like you said, uhura was great in other parts of the film. she did help spock a lot, even after she told him to get the bad guy. Carol is the other girl that has been crucified for just been a pretty face. lets all forget how she confronted and slapped her dad because of his evil plans (sarcarsm)

oh well....

 

[Clancy_s]

sorry not quoting because it's too hard to do on a tab...

I dislike the timing of Uhura’s outburst because they were in mid mission, approaching Kronos, 3 minutes eta Harrison and their lives were in danger not because Kirk was there. The discussion was ended by an attack by the Klingons, which IMO reinforces that as a bad time.

Sure humans loose it at the wrong moment sometimes, but not every time or we'd be extinct. Uhura is a trained professional and the volcano thing had happened some time earlier - I'd have hoped she'd have picked a better time.

I think the writers put it there because there was nowhere better, given the amount of action but I still dislike it. I don’t dislike Uhura btw, it pulls me out of the story and I think bad things about the writers.

wrt your examples

Spock marooned Kirk immediately after Kirk mutinied and attacked him but when they were deciding what to do next, not mid mission . It was still inappropriate and iirc while he was climbing out of the hole Kirk muttered about suing him.

Spock attacking Kirk was definitely unprofessional and Spock removed himself from command because of it. Also IMO having your love for your mother attacked immediately after you'd seen her, your home planet and 99. 9 % of its people destroyed is more immediately provoking than your boyfriend not being demonstrative when he thought he was going to die some days ago. YMMV.

Kirk's behaviour at the Kobayshi Maru was unprofessional and Spock was trying to get him thrown out of The Academy because of it when news of the attack on Vulcan came. Moreover that happened in a simulation, not on the front line.

 

[Clancy_s]

sorry about the double post - editing works really badly on a tab.

wrt Carol - mostly awesome with her science and weapons expertise and being willing to face off her father on the Enterprise but IMO she chose a weird time and place to take her clothes off and that's what people mostly remember. I don’t think slapping him was particularly brave or clever as she didn't seem to think he'd hit her back. IMO the smart move would have been to pretend to be cowed and try to disable the weapons system for a while longer.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I'd like to see them visit Keenser's homeworld. We could find out so much about them and their culture. Like the suspiciously Christmas-like holiday they celebrate.

Maybe there could be an animated segment.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

^Already done in an issue of the comic book.

 

[serenitytrek1]

sorry not quoting because it's too hard to do on a tab...

I dislike the timing of Uhura’s outburst because they were in mid mission, approaching Kronos, 3 minutes eta Harrison and their lives were in danger not because Kirk was there. The discussion was ended by an attack by the Klingons, which IMO reinforces that as a bad time.

Sure humans loose it at the wrong moment sometimes, but not every time or we'd be extinct. Uhura is a trained professional and the volcano thing had happened some time earlier - I'd have hoped she'd have picked a better time.

I think the writers put it there because there was nowhere better, given the amount of action but I still dislike it. I don’t dislike Uhura btw, it pulls me out of the story and I think bad things about the writers.

wrt your examples

Spock marooned Kirk immediately after Kirk mutinied and attacked him but when they were deciding what to do next, not mid mission . It was still inappropriate and iirc while he was climbing out of the hole Kirk muttered about suing him.

Spock attacking Kirk was definitely unprofessional and Spock removed himself from command because of it. Also IMO having your love for your mother attacked immediately after you'd seen her, your home planet and 99. 9 % of its people destroyed is more immediately provoking than your boyfriend not being demonstrative when he thought he was going to die some days ago. YMMV.

Kirk's behaviour at the Kobayshi Maru was unprofessional and Spock was trying to get him thrown out of The Academy because of it when news of the attack on Vulcan came. Moreover that happened in a simulation, not on the front line.

Spock told Jim that the purpose of the test is to experience fear. fear in the face of certain death. To accept that fear and maintain........cant remember his full speech.

Kirk's behaviour when taking the test is still no different from uhura's behaviour. I am not completely making excuses for both of them, I just consider it as one of the times when their human weakness gets the better of them.

Uhura's weakness been way too emotional and kirk's weakness been an arrogant douchebag. I add the term douchebag to kirk's character because of his sexual relationship with Galia and her role in him taking the test.


Spock in the first film is the worst of the worst. he threw Kirk out of the ship and dumped him on an icy deadly planet. kirk would have died if not for old Spock.

You argue that Spock lost his planet so that excused his actions of nearly killing kirk, However if that is his case, Spock should have stepped down as captain immediately after his mum died and Vulcan got blown up. Spock should never have carried on as captain. that was very unprofessional for Spock.



May I also add that watching your mum die and the potential death of your boyfriend will always provoke anger in any human. How many days that had gone by after the event took place is irrelevant. In fact the longer the days you wait and take to express your feelings to the person responsible for such actions, the worse your anger is going to get.


Also again you want to talk of Spock been professional.How about him putting Uhura on the Farragut, a ship that he knew she didn't belong on.

When Uhura went to Spock and demanded that she be put on the right ship.Uhura was very professional wasn't she? she didn't even mention her personal relationship with him. All she mentioned was her academic achievements. Trust me you cant get more professional than that.


The bottom line is this, kirk, spock, uhura have all had their unprofessional moments (I would say Spock is the worst) however they have also acted professional when it truly counts.

Remember when kirk asked uhura and I quote 'this isn't go to be a problem, you and Spock working together'' and her answer was absolutely not



Also, I don't see people calling out Bones when he made kirk sick on purpose just to get him on the enterprise. I get that Bones was just been a friend however Bones action was still very unprossional. Like Uhura in the 2nd film, Bones let his personal relationship with kirk get in the way of him going by Starfleet rules. the same rules that Kirk due to his own arrogance and pride broke and got suspended for.

The bottom line is this, You cant nail uhura on a wall and give Kirk and Spock a free pass. If uhura were a man you would perhaps not do that.

Its is so sad, Trek is still fighting the male establishment. if it where Star Wars, fans views will be different. Remember Anakin and padme? both of them chose to enter a wrong relationship that both knew was also very unprofessional and will always get in the way of their careers. I don't see star wars fans including myself blaming only Padme for it.


As for carol there was no need for her to be in her bra and panties, however I don't think she should simply be defined by that.

Women still have a long way to go in TOS Trek Universe. I applaud JJ for giving Uhura more to do. Uhura saving Spock and speaking Klingon was very impressive when you consider the fact that she is a supporting character in a series
ruled by two alpha males. Kirk and Spock.

 

[Malaika]

IMO It all comes down to the fact that according to some women cannot express love and feelings because if they do that they're considered "weak". On the other hand there is this very radicated patriarchal idea in the star trek fandom in particular that men being defined by their interpersonal relationships are good story telling and character development (maybe because it had always been like that) Only men are allowed to show feelings without being made weak by them.

For some maybe but my reservations with Uhura's expressions of feelings in STID come from how it was done, not the fact she had feelings.

Mostly I think that the moment of entry of their ship into Kronos' atmosphere, 3 minutes eta from Harrison, was a really inappropriate moment for her to front Spock about his apparent lack of care for her feelings. This was underlined by Kirk's "are we really doing this now" which elicited a generalised snicker from the audience when I saw it and IMO made Uhura look unprofessional and foolish.

Elsewhere in the movie she did really well, but that IMO unfortunate moment was what caught my attention the most on first viewing.

I won't object to your perspective but I'll just point up that Kirk hadn't acted so differently in the whole movie and I hardly see people complaining about that even though he was, you know, the acting captain. This is another thing that makes me worry about possible double standard in the way female characters are perceived compared to the male ones because this is not the first time that people point fingers at Uhura and call her unprofessional and yet they don't even seem to notice all the other examples where the male characters act unprofessional.

Uhura's issues with Spock were issues that Kirk had repeatedly voiced as well (just from a friend perspective compared to the perspective of his girlfriend) that scene between S/U happened in front of Kirk for this very reason, I think, because he was there to eventually take her side and support her (as he did) as he had the same problem with Spock. Intentional fallacy perspective: you could say that if the wanted the writers could have made them talk about it in private (and I would have preferred it too, honestly ) but the pace of the movie didn't give them the chance and they, most importantly, needed Kirk to listen to that too so that he could understand Spock more but Spock would never open up about his feelings with him only Uhura (or more specifically Nyota ) could make him do that because, of course, he'd have a personal reason to open up with her that way and try to make her understand his side careless of the fact that other people would listen to that.

I might also incidentally point up that maybe the movie is from Kirk's perspective and this is the reason why most of the scenes happen in front of him. You hardly get any interaction between characters that aren't in some way linked to him. It really was a Kirk movie foremost IMO

I might also note that in the scene in the shuttle Uhura wasn't the only one with the fault when it comes to who started the argument. When she made her initial comment ("good thing you don't care to die") I bet Spock heard it perfectly but he still asked her if she had said something and if she could repeat thus giving her the chance to eat him
I think that the scene showed how exasperated Uhura was by his behavior, the implication was that he wouldn't talk about it and he kept avoiding the topic and she just couldn't help it anymore. They could have died in that mission and they knew it so from her pov it was now or never.
It was inappropriate and unprofessional but no more than Kirk arguing with Spock in front of their superior officer (Pike) because he was angry and frustrated by him. They're officers but they're human too so having them act in a matter that seems unprofessional sometimes might be intentional from the writers and part of their character development.

Another perspective on the scene is pretty much what JJ and Zoe Saldana said. JJ mentioned (in an article for the empire magazine) that the scene was originally written as a simple chase scene and it was "fun" but he felt it added nothing and it had no depth and no purpose. It later became a placeholder for the S/U scene that he considers important for them and a "microcosmic example of what the movie is about". His point was that he felt he needed to make people care about the characters and humanize them even while they were risking their life and going on important missions... that is what Zoe Saldana more or less also said here:

There’s a great moment in the film when Uhura brings up these issues with Spock in a really dangerous moment…. Zoe Saldana: I love that scene when we have that conversation (laughs). It’s in front of their boss too, the Captain is in-between us. We’re getting shot at and I ask him to commit to more. It feels like a typical, contemporary love story (laughs). That’s one thing that’s great about working with J.J. and his team of writers, in that you’re going to be stepping into shoes of human beings – whether they’re superhuman, or whether they’re fighting battles. Even considering what they do as work, they’re still being challenged with everyday matters of the heart, you know? And they’re still being challenged with politics and self-discovery. So the story and the journey between Spock and Uhura is, in my opinion, she’s learning the kind of person he is, and she’s encouraging him to cater to his human side, to his human half. And there’s a conflict there, because he doesn’t want to be compromised, because he feels like if he’s to be compromised he’ll be weak and a lot of people will suffer.
And Uhura, she needs to learn to just understand his Vulcan side. She’s with a man who has duty before anything else, she needs to accept and embrace that when he tells her that she’s important to him, that she is. But that’s really hard for us ladies, we often want more (laughs). So that’s the conflict. But I liked the way in that scene that it was presented how we would have it out, you know? It’s not just us sitting down having a cup of tea (laughs), our lives are in danger. With the levity of the situation it’s really humorous.
(x)

so, people might consider the "how" and "when" of that scene a flaw in the writing and even OOC for her but I think it was completely intentional from their part thus important the way it's for the reasons above mentioned.

 

[Clancy_s]

The bottom line is this, You cant nail uhura on a wall and give Kirk and Spock a free pass. If uhura were a man you would perhaps not do that.

Women still have a long way to go in TOS Trek Universe. I applaud JJ for giving Uhura more to do. Uhura saving Spock and speaking Klingon was very impressive when you consider the fact that she is a supporting character in a series
ruled by two alpha males. Kirk and Spock.

I didn't mean to give the impression I thought only Uhura had acted unprofessionally, I apologise for doing so.

I care more about Uhura's professionalism than Kirk's partly because I'm female and care more about the lead supporting female role and partly because I think that in reboot Uhura is generally professional, competent and controlled whereas Kirk is self-centered, arrogant and short tempered (starting to grow out of it.

 

[serenitytrek1]

The bottom line is this, You cant nail uhura on a wall and give Kirk and Spock a free pass. If uhura were a man you would perhaps not do that.

Women still have a long way to go in TOS Trek Universe. I applaud JJ for giving Uhura more to do. Uhura saving Spock and speaking Klingon was very impressive when you consider the fact that she is a supporting character in a series
ruled by two alpha males. Kirk and Spock.

I didn't mean to give the impression I thought only Uhura had acted unprofessionally, I apologise for doing so.

I care more about Uhura's professionalism than Kirk's partly because I'm female and care more about the lead supporting female role and partly because I think that in reboot Uhura is generally professional, competent and controlled whereas Kirk is self-centered, arrogant and short tempered (starting to grow out of it.

That's cool...I never thought you did. Its just that the whole uhura hate has been so unfair. I do think overall Uhura is a stong woman. Did anyone remember Spock words to kirk about uhura when she went to face the Klingon.

Am not sure I can put in in quote but Spock said something about trying not to bring the wrath of uhura upon himself and Kirk.

If Spock, a cold logical Vulcan can get scared of her. Then it does say something about her character and personality.

Of course most people wont pick on that. they are too busy hating and calling her a weakling.

oh well...

 

[Clancy_s]

Its just that the whole uhura hate has been so unfair. I do think overall Uhura is a stong woman. Did anyone remember Spock words to kirk about uhura when she went to face the Klingon.

Am not sure I can put in in quote but Spock said something about trying not to bring the wrath of uhura upon himself and Kirk.

If Spock, a cold logical Vulcan can get scared of her. Then it does say something about her character and personality.

Of course most people wont pick on that. they are too busy hating and calling her a weakling.

oh well...

Spock essentially said that Kirk would call down the wrath of both the Klingons and Lieutenant Uhura on himself (ie on Kirk) if he interrupted her. I don't think Spock's ever just called her Uhura - it's Lieutenant Uhura on duty, Nyota personally, which I like.

I've not seen any generalised Uhura hate - wrong threads or wrong boards I guess. My main point was that I think the timing of that segment was poor. However I accept that in such an action packed movie there was no good time for it. It didn't work for me the way JJ intended it to, but then I'm a long way from his target audience.