Destiny Why did they not... BEWARE Spoilers

[Stephen!]

Because you can't predict the butterfly effects.

It probably wouldn't stop the Bajorans from using the Orb of time, if the alternative was for Bajor to be destroyed.

 

[Christopher]

Fortunately Picard exercised better judgment here, with help from Geordi.

I'm still trying to figure out how having your race wiped out is somehow better judgement.

That's a false dichotomy, because their race wasn't wiped out as a result of refusing to build the thalaron weapon. They committed to finding a better way, and they succeeded. Their good judgment was in not jumping to the conclusion that there was no other way.

 

[BillJ]

Fortunately Picard exercised better judgment here, with help from Geordi.

I'm still trying to figure out how having your race wiped out is somehow better judgment.

That's a false dichotomy, because their race wasn't wiped out as a result of refusing to build the thalaron weapon. They committed to finding a better way, and they succeeded. Their good judgment was in not jumping to the conclusion that there was no other way.

Um... unless I misread the book, they got lucky. They did nothing other than sit around and watch the Caeliar absorb the Borg. How was that good judgment or finding another way?

I know I wouldn't bet the existence of my race on picking the right six lottery numbers tonight.

I continue to watch people try to apply human morals and military tactics to what is essentially a force of nature. You don't reason with a hurricane.

 

[Christopher]

^^But that's no excuse for being too hasty to unleash the next hurricane, or to become it. It's far too easy to cite desperate circumstances as an excuse for throwing your morals in the trash, and that's exactly why it's so important to resist that urge.

 

[BillJ]

^^But that's no excuse for being too hasty to unleash the next hurricane, or to become it. It's far too easy to cite desperate circumstances as an excuse for throwing your morals in the trash, and that's exactly why it's so important to resist that urge.

So, when exactly is the time to act? When is it time to play whatever cards you have? All you've done is promote inaction, while sixty-three billion have died.

 

[Sci]

I'm still trying to figure out how having your race wiped out is somehow better judgment.

That's a false dichotomy, because their race wasn't wiped out as a result of refusing to build the thalaron weapon. They committed to finding a better way, and they succeeded. Their good judgment was in not jumping to the conclusion that there was no other way.

Um... unless I misread the book, they got lucky. They did nothing other than sit around and watch the Caeliar absorb the Borg. How was that good judgment or finding another way?

I know I wouldn't bet the existence of my race on picking the right six lottery numbers tonight.

I continue to watch people try to apply human morals and military tactics to what is essentially a force of nature. You don't reason with a hurricane.

False logic. What makes you think a thalaron weapon would have been any more useful, in the long run, than any other weapon? The Borg would just have adapted to it. And then they'd be back at square one, eventually.

Even if it succeeded in destroying all Borg ships in the Alpha Quadrant at the time, the Borg would just send more ships that would show up within three or four years. And in the meantime, the Klingons and Romulans and dozens of other politically unstable worlds may decide to develop their own thalaraon weapons, further destabilizing the AQ and leading to more deaths.

I'd be all for Picard breaking Federation law if it would actually do any damn good, but there's no reason to think the thalaron weapon would do any more good in the long run than transphasic torpedos.

 

[BillJ]

That's a false dichotomy, because their race wasn't wiped out as a result of refusing to build the thalaron weapon. They committed to finding a better way, and they succeeded. Their good judgment was in not jumping to the conclusion that there was no other way.

Um... unless I misread the book, they got lucky. They did nothing other than sit around and watch the Caeliar absorb the Borg. How was that good judgment or finding another way?

I know I wouldn't bet the existence of my race on picking the right six lottery numbers tonight.

I continue to watch people try to apply human morals and military tactics to what is essentially a force of nature. You don't reason with a hurricane.

False logic. What makes you think a thalaron weapon would have been any more useful, in the long run, than any other weapon? The Borg would just have adapted to it. And then they'd be back at square one, eventually.

Even if it succeeded in destroying all Borg ships in the Alpha Quadrant at the time, the Borg would just send more ships that would show up within three or four years. And in the meantime, the Klingons and Romulans and dozens of other politically unstable worlds may decide to develop their own thalaraon weapons, further destabilizing the AQ and leading to more deaths.

I'd be all for Picard breaking Federation law if it would actually do any damn good, but there's no reason to think the thalaron weapon would do any more good in the long run than transphasic torpedos.

So... you're telling me an extra three or four years wouldn't do any good? Best action is to sit and hope the tooth fairy comes and saves your ass?

 

[BillJ]

By the by... great discussion.

 

[LightningStorm]

So... you're telling me an extra three or four years wouldn't do any good?

It hasn't in the past. There have been a few years between each Borg invasion of the AQ, and each time it's more devastating than before. Delaying tactics have only caused more death, due in part to what Sci is talking about: They have adapted.

 

[Sci]

Um... unless I misread the book, they got lucky. They did nothing other than sit around and watch the Caeliar absorb the Borg. How was that good judgment or finding another way?

I know I wouldn't bet the existence of my race on picking the right six lottery numbers tonight.

I continue to watch people try to apply human morals and military tactics to what is essentially a force of nature. You don't reason with a hurricane.

False logic. What makes you think a thalaron weapon would have been any more useful, in the long run, than any other weapon? The Borg would just have adapted to it. And then they'd be back at square one, eventually.

Even if it succeeded in destroying all Borg ships in the Alpha Quadrant at the time, the Borg would just send more ships that would show up within three or four years. And in the meantime, the Klingons and Romulans and dozens of other politically unstable worlds may decide to develop their own thalaraon weapons, further destabilizing the AQ and leading to more deaths.

I'd be all for Picard breaking Federation law if it would actually do any damn good, but there's no reason to think the thalaron weapon would do any more good in the long run than transphasic torpedos.

So... you're telling me an extra three or four years wouldn't do any good? Best action is to sit and hope the tooth fairy comes and saves your ass?

Frankly, yes. Say you wait three or four more years? What does that mean? It means that the Borg come back in four years and exterminate you then because you'll have shot your wad back in '81 and you have no new superweapons they haven't adapted to already, and in the meantime, all hell breaks out -- if nothing within your space, then just outside it, thus rendering all your potential allies in a Borg invasion impotent, and all because you used a thalaron.

Really, you might as well just ask the Tooth Fairy to help you. It'd do about as much good.

 

[BillJ]

False logic. What makes you think a thalaron weapon would have been any more useful, in the long run, than any other weapon? The Borg would just have adapted to it. And then they'd be back at square one, eventually.

Even if it succeeded in destroying all Borg ships in the Alpha Quadrant at the time, the Borg would just send more ships that would show up within three or four years. And in the meantime, the Klingons and Romulans and dozens of other politically unstable worlds may decide to develop their own thalaraon weapons, further destabilizing the AQ and leading to more deaths.

I'd be all for Picard breaking Federation law if it would actually do any damn good, but there's no reason to think the thalaron weapon would do any more good in the long run than transphasic torpedos.

So... you're telling me an extra three or four years wouldn't do any good? Best action is to sit and hope the tooth fairy comes and saves your ass?

Frankly, yes. Say you wait three or four more years? What does that mean? It means that the Borg come back in four years and exterminate you then because you'll have shot your wad back in '81 and you have no new superweapons they haven't adapted to already, and in the meantime, all hell breaks out -- if nothing within your space, then just outside it, thus rendering all your potential allies in a Borg invasion impotent, and all because you used a thalaron.

Really, you might as well just ask the Tooth Fairy to help you. It'd do about as much good.

Wow... just wow. We won't do anything because if, by chance, it is successful the bad guys might come back at a later date. Or it may cause some strife in the meantime. If you destroy seven thousand-four hundred Borg cubes, it may take them a bit longer to recover than the times they sent one cube. Plus, we do seem to be pretty adaptive on our own turning back more than one Borg invasion.

 

[Christopher]

So, when exactly is the time to act? When is it time to play whatever cards you have? All you've done is promote inaction, while sixty-three billion have died.

You're making the misleading claim that rejecting immorally violent action is the same as rejecting any action. Brute force is not the only kind of action. Contrary to your claim, the characters did not just sit back and wait for the Caeliar to save them. They persuaded the Caeliar to get involved. They fought with words and ideas and ideals, led by positive moral example, and that proved more effective in the end than defaulting to violence. That's what Star Trek is all about -- the idea that there is a better way than just trying to kill everything you're afraid of, that standing for your principles does more good in the long run. Sure, it can be debated whether that would work in reality, but that's the way it should work in Star Trek.

Besides, Sci is right. Brute force has never proved conclusive in any battle against the Borg; at most, it's set them back temporarily and made them more dangerous once they adapted to your newest weapon and rendered it useless against them. It's a stopgap at best. So your assumption that using a thalaron weapon would've been a game-changer is frankly bewildering. The whole thalaron plan was nothing more than desperate grasping at straws. It might've given them a few more months before the Borg annihilated the Federation, maybe allowed them time to evacuate more people and get a headstart on the Borg hunting them down, let them live a few more desperate years before the last of them were brought to heel and destroyed. It would've turned Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica. It wouldn't have solved anything. All it would've been was a petty act of retaliation, a way of going down fighting and exacting a symbolic revenge. What's so great about that?

Plus, we do seem to be pretty adaptive on our own turning back more than one Borg invasion.

Wrong. We've been able to turn back minor Borg incursions, raids by a single cube at a time. And even that was by the skin of our teeth every time. It's naive to think that's in any way comparable to a full-scale Borg invasion, to having the full might of the Collective dedicated to the Federation's destruction. You might as well say that, having blown out a few candles, you're qualified to stop a forest fire.

 

[BillJ]

So, when exactly is the time to act? When is it time to play whatever cards you have? All you've done is promote inaction, while sixty-three billion have died.

You're making the misleading claim that rejecting immorally violent action is the same as rejecting any action. Brute force is not the only kind of action. Contrary to your claim, the characters did not just sit back and wait for the Caeliar to save them. They persuaded the Caeliar to get involved. They fought with words and ideas and ideals, led by positive moral example, and that proved more effective in the end than defaulting to violence. That's what Star Trek is all about -- the idea that there is a better way than just trying to kill everything you're afraid of, that standing for your principles does more good in the long run. Sure, it can be debated whether that would work in reality, but that's the way it should work in Star Trek.

Besides, Sci is right. Brute force has never proved conclusive in any battle against the Borg; at most, it's set them back temporarily and made them more dangerous once they adapted to your newest weapon and rendered it useless against them. It's a stopgap at best. So your assumption that using a thalaron weapon would've been a game-changer is frankly bewildering. The whole thalaron plan was nothing more than desperate grasping at straws. It might've given them a few more months before the Borg annihilated the Federation, maybe allowed them time to evacuate more people and get a headstart on the Borg hunting them down, let them live a few more desperate years before the last of them were brought to heel and destroyed. It would've turned Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica. It wouldn't have solved anything. All it would've been was a petty act of retaliation, a way of going down fighting and exacting a symbolic revenge. What's so great about that?

I'm just bewildered that people chose to just give-up. Let's remember that Picard (which was the whole reason I responded in this thread) attempted to block contacting the Caeliar.

I've always been straight forward that both solutions that Picard had were not fool-proof.

The morality of Star Trek is not that far off from reality. There is the idealized version... what we want to be, there is also the realist...what we truly are. We are survivors and we would fight to the bitter end. It is who we are. I'm not sure that I would want to be part of a race that just gives up.

Picard said that someone would be better off dead than be a Borg drone in First Contact. If the Federation falls he is essentially condemning the galaxy to being enslaved by the Borg.

 

[BillJ]

So, when exactly is the time to act? When is it time to play whatever cards you have? All you've done is promote inaction, while sixty-three billion have died.

You're making the misleading claim that rejecting immorally violent action is the same as rejecting any action. Brute force is not the only kind of action. Contrary to your claim, the characters did not just sit back and wait for the Caeliar to save them. They persuaded the Caeliar to get involved. They fought with words and ideas and ideals, led by positive moral example, and that proved more effective in the end than defaulting to violence. That's what Star Trek is all about -- the idea that there is a better way than just trying to kill everything you're afraid of, that standing for your principles does more good in the long run. Sure, it can be debated whether that would work in reality, but that's the way it should work in Star Trek.

Besides, Sci is right. Brute force has never proved conclusive in any battle against the Borg; at most, it's set them back temporarily and made them more dangerous once they adapted to your newest weapon and rendered it useless against them. It's a stopgap at best. So your assumption that using a thalaron weapon would've been a game-changer is frankly bewildering. The whole thalaron plan was nothing more than desperate grasping at straws. It might've given them a few more months before the Borg annihilated the Federation, maybe allowed them time to evacuate more people and get a headstart on the Borg hunting them down, let them live a few more desperate years before the last of them were brought to heel and destroyed. It would've turned Star Trek into Battlestar Galactica. It wouldn't have solved anything. All it would've been was a petty act of retaliation, a way of going down fighting and exacting a symbolic revenge. What's so great about that?

Plus, we do seem to be pretty adaptive on our own turning back more than one Borg invasion.

Wrong. We've been able to turn back minor Borg incursions, raids by a single cube at a time. And even that was by the skin of our teeth every time. It's naive to think that's in any way comparable to a full-scale Borg invasion, to having the full might of the Collective dedicated to the Federation's destruction. You might as well say that, having blown out a few candles, you're qualified to stop a forest fire.

Let's be quite clear on one thing... they got a bigger kid to come take care of the bully kicking their collective asses. They didn't care how the Caeliar took care of the Borg, as long as it was done.

 

[Christopher]

I'm just bewildered that people chose to just give-up.

Then you're misinterpreting the whole story. As I said, it's a gross mistake to assume that rejecting immoral and violent action is the same thing as refusing to do anything. It's not giving up to look for a better way. On the contrary, giving in to something as evil as you're suggesting -- that's giving up. That's admitting that nothing matters anymore and you might as well become a monster yourself.

The morality of Star Trek is not that far off from reality. There is the idealized version... what we want to be, there is also the realist...what we truly are. We are survivors and we would fight to the bitter end. It is who we are. I'm not sure that I would want to be part of a race that just gives up.

Making the same mistake. Force isn't the only way to fight. Fighting to the bitter end means fighting with ideas and ideals and examples, not just fists or guns or bombs. Look at Captain Kirk. He fought the Gorn to a standstill -- but then he fought the Metrons by refusing to live down to their expectations, by defiantly letting his enemy live as an assault against the paradigm the Metrons had forced him into.

Let's be quite clear on one thing... they got a bigger kid to come take care of the bully kicking their collective asses. The didn't care how the Caeliar took care of the Borg, as long as it was done.

You completely misunderstood the book. The Caeliar didn't kick anyone's anything. They redeemed the Borg. They saved the Borg, liberated them from the trap of Sedin's hunger. They didn't use a bigger gun, they used a kinder form of unity. They took responsibility for their warped, damaged offspring and brought them back into the fold in order to heal them. And that act of love was far more powerful than any act of violence could ever be.

 

[BillJ]

I'm just bewildered that people chose to just give-up.

Then you're misinterpreting the whole story. As I said, it's a gross mistake to assume that rejecting immoral and violent action is the same thing as refusing to do anything. It's not giving up to look for a better way. On the contrary, giving in to something as evil as you're suggesting -- that's giving up. That's admitting that nothing matters anymore and you might as well become a monster yourself.

The morality of Star Trek is not that far off from reality. There is the idealized version... what we want to be, there is also the realist...what we truly are. We are survivors and we would fight to the bitter end. It is who we are. I'm not sure that I would want to be part of a race that just gives up.

Making the same mistake. Force isn't the only way to fight. Fighting to the bitter end means fighting with ideas and ideals and examples, not just fists or guns or bombs. Look at Captain Kirk. He fought the Gorn to a standstill -- but then he fought the Metrons by refusing to live down to their expectations, by defiantly letting his enemy live as an assault against the paradigm the Metrons had forced him into.

Let's be quite clear on one thing... they got a bigger kid to come take care of the bully kicking their collective asses. The didn't care how the Caeliar took care of the Borg, as long as it was done.

You completely misunderstood the book. The Caeliar didn't kick anyone's anything. They redeemed the Borg. They saved the Borg, liberated them from the trap of Sedin's hunger. They didn't use a bigger gun, they used a kinder form of unity. They took responsibility for their warped, damaged offspring and brought them back into the fold in order to heal them. And that act of love was far more powerful than any act of violence could ever be.

1. So if the Titan doesn't find the Caeliar, what is the better way?

2. Obviously force isn't the only way to fight. When dealing with the Borg what are the other ways? When you don't have a super-tech species to back you up? When you have absolutely nothing they want, when you don't share the same ideals.

3. Actually read what I'm writing. I never said the Caeliar kicked their asses. I said the Caeliar took care of the bully kicking our asses.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

Fortunately Picard exercised better judgment here, with help from Geordi.

I'm still trying to figure out how having your race wiped out is somehow better judgement. Guess I'm just one of the simple masses.

How one acts in the face of death is just as important as how one lives.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I've never really understood why thalaron weapons are so taboo. This is a universe where one Starship can destroy a planet, there are biogenic (sp?) weapons around, the genesis tech must be sitting around somewhere.. Yes it is a powerful weapon, but there are already tons of world-killer weapons out there.

I also don't believe that the Federation choosing not to develop them would have any bearing on other powers in the galaxy trying to make or use them. Maybe the Klingons wouldn't, but everything we have ever seen relating to races like the Romulans, Tholians, Gorn, Breen, CArdies, etc. suggests that the second they had them that they wouldn't hesitate to use them.

 

[BillJ]

We're sitting here arguing about how these books are showing us taking the high road. One question: How many Borg cubes did they destroy with transphasic torpedoes? Alot (I remember the Enterprise cracking a few like they were walnuts whacked by a hammer) . One more question: How many Borg cubes would they have destroyed if they hadn't adapted? All seven thousand-four hundred.

Death is death is death... whether by transphasic torpedoes, thalaron radiation or having a coronary while sitting on the toilet.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

We're sitting here arguing about how these books are showing us taking the high road. One question: How many Borg cubes did they destroy with transphasic torpedoes? Alot (I remember the Enterprise cracking a few like they were walnuts whacked by a hammer) . One more question: How many Borg cubes would they have destroyed if they hadn't adapted? All seven thousand-four hundred.

Death is death is death... whether by transphasic torpedoes, thalaron radiation or having a coronary while sitting on the toilet.

And yet, they did it all without crossing the moral line and doing it against their laws.