Destiny-timeline vs. Countdown/STO-timeline

[Cybersnark]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for us fans to treat them as though they constituted separate continuities, as, for our purposes, they might as well be different universes. But from a non-fan POV, they're no more separate "universes" than, say, the Batman comics and Christopher Nolan films are. They're just different versions of the story.

Well, it's not like alternate timelines are in any way unusual in Trek. As far as pop culture is concerned, Trek pretty much codified the "Mirror Universe" concept, and as of ST09, it's kind becoming our "thing."

(And the DCU and Nolan films easily fit as part of the same multiverse; there are explicitly 52 different universes [and that would have to be just the DCU's "stream" --there are recorded "multiversal" crossovers with Marvel's 616-universe, which has its own plethora of alternate universes]. And this counts fundamental universe changes, not mere timelines [of which there would, of necessity, be billions more].)

The closest videogame Trek came to fitting into the tv/film version was the old point-and-click games from the early 90's. Everything else includes way too much violence to really be a justifyable part of the tv/film/novel Trek universe - like Elite Force 2's massacre through Space Station K-7 (armed with a bazooka-style micro quantum torpedo launcher) in order to capture and interrogate a Ferengi.

I always thought the first Elite Force game actually made more sense than the show it was based on; Voyager in constant disrepair, sections of the ship blocked off, holodecks actually being used for training, personality clashes between trained Starfleet Academy graduates and slightly more eccentric Maquis, Tuvok and Seven putting together a dedicated Hazard Team (because they don't have the option of calling in Starfleet Marines).

Plus the DS9 game, The Fallen, which had the Dominion War and a Bajoran religious conflict as backdrops, allowing the violence to make sense. I actually find it more coherent than the Millennium Trilogy it purports to adapt.

 

[Christopher]

I always thought the first Elite Force game actually made more sense than the show it was based on; Voyager in constant disrepair, sections of the ship blocked off, holodecks actually being used for training, personality clashes between trained Starfleet Academy graduates and slightly more eccentric Maquis...

Perhaps because it was UPN that pushed the producers of the show to minimize such elements, meaning that the makers of the game wouldn't have been under the same restrictions.

Plus the DS9 game, The Fallen, which had the Dominion War and a Bajoran religious conflict as backdrops, allowing the violence to make sense. I actually find it more coherent than the Millennium Trilogy it purports to adapt.

It's not adapting the trilogy; rather, the game and the trilogy were developed in parallel from the same source concepts.

 

[Xavier_Storma]

Well, if you ignore the actual game, Countdown, The Needs of the Many and the "path to..." articles make up an alternate post-Nemesis continuity that fits with tv/film Trek just fine.

I cannot agree with that. STO does not make up an continuity which would fit with tv/film TREK at all. They got the TNG characers wrong, mainly Picard. After GENERATIONS he would never step down to such an unimportant post like the ambassador to Vulcan. He took Kirk by his words, and would follow his advice, especially after the events of INSURRECTION (he says that much at the end of the film to Anij) and NEMESIS.

Second: The development of Federation and Klingon relations is completely off... after the Dominion war, and under Martok's leadershipm the Klingons won't turn against their allies, instead (in Roddenberry's spirit) I can see them uniting with the UFP into an all new power (the Typhon Pact follows a much more logical line here).

 

[RonG]

Well, if you ignore the actual game, Countdown, The Needs of the Many and the "path to..." articles make up an alternate post-Nemesis continuity that fits with tv/film Trek just fine.

I cannot agree with that. STO does not make up an continuity which would fit with tv/film TREK at all. They got the TNG characers wrong, mainly Picard. After GENERATIONS he would never step down to such an unimportant post like the ambassador to Vulcan. He took Kirk by his words, and would follow his advice, especially after the events of INSURRECTION (he says that much at the end of the film to Anij) and NEMESIS.

Second: The development of Federation and Klingon relations is completely off... after the Dominion war, and under Martok's leadershipm the Klingons won't turn against their allies, instead (in Roddenberry's spirit) I can see them uniting with the UFP into an all new power (the Typhon Pact follows a much more logical line here).

While I personally consider the TrekLit timeline as the "official" continuation of the series and movies, you can't ignore the fact that relationships (personal and geo-political) and circumstances change and evolve with time. Sometimes you can end up in a place you would never have thought possible (both positive and negative), so objectively, both developments you mention as implausible are actually quite possible in the right/wrong circumstances...

 

[Xavier_Storma]

Well, if you ignore the actual game, Countdown, The Needs of the Many and the "path to..." articles make up an alternate post-Nemesis continuity that fits with tv/film Trek just fine.

I cannot agree with that. STO does not make up an continuity which would fit with tv/film TREK at all. They got the TNG characers wrong, mainly Picard. After GENERATIONS he would never step down to such an unimportant post like the ambassador to Vulcan. He took Kirk by his words, and would follow his advice, especially after the events of INSURRECTION (he says that much at the end of the film to Anij) and NEMESIS.

Second: The development of Federation and Klingon relations is completely off... after the Dominion war, and under Martok's leadershipm the Klingons won't turn against their allies, instead (in Roddenberry's spirit) I can see them uniting with the UFP into an all new power (the Typhon Pact follows a much more logical line here).

While I personally consider the TrekLit timeline as the "official" continuation of the series and movies, you can't ignore the fact that relationships (personal and geo-political) and circumstances change and evolve with time. Sometimes you can end up in a place you would never have thought possible (both positive and negative), so objectively, both developments you mention as implausible are actually quite possible in the right/wrong circumstances...

I also consider the books the official continuation, and I agree that unexpected developments may occure, but what the Path to 2409 suggests is simply too far away from what we have seen on screen. The TREK universe follows a certain pattern (in Gene Roddenberry's spirit) and it is highly unlikely Gene would want the Klingons as the bad guys again. If you consider TUC, where Kirk made his peace with his nemesis, STO ruins the complete message and optimism of STAR TREK, by going backwards instead of forward. TREK was always about an optimistic view into the future. Granted the DESTINY trilogy is far from being optimistic, but then again it was solved without violence. The Borg did not get extinct, they were saved, redeemed if you want.

Concerning Picard: We have seen his character in 178 episodes and 4 movies (+ 2 episodes from DS9)... I am fairly certain we can perdict how he would decide to live his life... especially after the events of AGT and GENERATIONS, and it is not like STO suggests he would. He is one of the best explored characters in all TREK, and his STO version was unlike anything we have seen on screen. It is not his nature.

 

[RonG]

I cannot agree with that. STO does not make up an continuity which would fit with tv/film TREK at all. They got the TNG characers wrong, mainly Picard. After GENERATIONS he would never step down to such an unimportant post like the ambassador to Vulcan. He took Kirk by his words, and would follow his advice, especially after the events of INSURRECTION (he says that much at the end of the film to Anij) and NEMESIS.

Second: The development of Federation and Klingon relations is completely off... after the Dominion war, and under Martok's leadershipm the Klingons won't turn against their allies, instead (in Roddenberry's spirit) I can see them uniting with the UFP into an all new power (the Typhon Pact follows a much more logical line here).

While I personally consider the TrekLit timeline as the "official" continuation of the series and movies, you can't ignore the fact that relationships (personal and geo-political) and circumstances change and evolve with time. Sometimes you can end up in a place you would never have thought possible (both positive and negative), so objectively, both developments you mention as implausible are actually quite possible in the right/wrong circumstances...

I also consider the books the official continuation, and I agree that unexpected developments may occure, but what the Path to 2409 suggests is simply too far away from what we have seen on screen. The TREK universe follows a certain pattern (in Gene Roddenberry's spirit) and it is highly unlikely Gene would want the Klingons as the bad guys again. If you consider TUC, where Kirk made his peace with his nemesis, STO ruins the complete message and optimism of STAR TREK, by going backwards instead of forward. TREK was always about an optimistic view into the future. Granted the DESTINY trilogy is far from being optimistic, but then again it was solved without violence. The Borg did not get extinct, they were saved, redeemed if you want.

Concerning Picard: We have seen his character in 178 episodes and 4 movies (+ 2 episodes from DS9)... I am fairly certain we can perdict how he would decide to live his life... especially after the events of AGT and GENERATIONS, and it is not like STO suggests he would. He is one of the best explored characters in all TREK, and his STO version was unlike anything we have seen on screen. It is not his nature.

One can argue that the original "spirit" of GR's Trek has not been in (complete) effect since GR's passing (TNG season 3, IIRC).

The development of the Klingons is an example. Remember that during DS9's middle seasons, the UFP was at war (or at least a cold war) with the Empire. The fact that the High Council was influenced by the Dominion is besides the point (as in STO's Path to 2409 Species 8472 are the "real culprits").

As for Picard, his character (as *any* character) can change, grow and evolve. Who's to say what's in store for TrekLit's Picard, following the effects of Destiny, fatherhood, etc.

Just to make it clear if I haven't - I have no real preference for the Path to 2409 developments (least of all when it contradicts TrekLit), but I think that *similar* developments can occur even in the TrekLit universe...

BTW, Destiny was not resolved with violence, but was filled with it nonetheless (just one more thing that makes it THE Trek saga IMO )

 

[F. King Daniel]

Picard may well have stepped down due to the onset of Irumodic Symdrome - but it could have been anything. The 2385 entry in "Path to 2409" mentions a personal request from the Federation president, but keeps it vague.

Both Picard as ambassador and a breakdown in Klingon/Federation relations were forseen in TNG's "All Good Things" finale. IIRC the Klingons were somewhat hostile in Old Janeway's "Endgame" future as well. You can't blame Cryptic for following the lead of the TV show's alternate futures.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Both Picard as ambassador and a breakdown in Klingon/Federation relations were forseen in TNG's "All Good Things" finale. IIRC the Klingons were somewhat hostile in Old Janeway's "Endgame" future as well. You can't blame Cryptic for following the lead of the TV show's alternate futures.

Good point. "Klingons as the enemy again" is a staple of Trek's projected possible "futures".

 

[Christopher]

Concerning Picard: We have seen his character in 178 episodes and 4 movies (+ 2 episodes from DS9)... I am fairly certain we can perdict how he would decide to live his life... especially after the events of AGT and GENERATIONS, and it is not like STO suggests he would. He is one of the best explored characters in all TREK, and his STO version was unlike anything we have seen on screen. It is not his nature.

To give credit where it's due, wasn't it Countdown that established Picard's ambassadorship? STO was just following its lead.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^Countdown took it's cue from "All Good Things". I don't know how much crossover there was between Countdown and STO when Countdown was being written and STO developed, but Countdown does feature uniforms designed for the online game.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

AFAIK, Countdown is part of the STO timeline.

 

[Ronald Held]

Perhaps as STO progresses the klingons and Federation may again ujnite against their major adversary.

 

[Christopher]

AFAIK, Countdown is part of the STO timeline.

Yes, but my point is that that's because the ST:O timeline borrowed from it and from the novels. An earlier poster attributed the idea of Picard becoming an ambassador to ST:O as if they had created that story development, and I was pointing out that they'd only borrowed it; the authors of Countdown created it. And credit should be given where it's due.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Regarding the OP, I started a thread in March on reconciling STO with Trek Lit, and the main point was, that STO is some sort of simulated study done by Starfleet.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=117719

That sounds actually very good and would make perfect sense.

Agreed! Reminds me of how the (never made) continuation of classic BSG would have treated Galactica 1980 - as a virtual reality simulation of what would have happened had everything gone disastrously wrong.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

the way everybody has their own starship,

Actually I believe that was explained as a result of how many casualties the federation has suffered from the war with the klingons.

 

[Christopher]

^How could the Klingons inflict all those casualties without destroying the ships too?

 

[sulfur]

Shore Leave planets. Just look how dangerous the original was until Kirk, McCoy, and Spock <s>defused it</s> turned it into a Saturday morning cartoon.

 

[Christopher]

But nobody died on the Shore Leave planet. Just ask McCoy. (Even when the Caretaker died and the computer went amok, it still didn't kill anybody, because it was a Saturday morning cartoon by that point.)

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Klingons used kung-fu. Starfleet didn't have a chance.

 

[rahullak]

^Don't you mean kling-fu