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Design of Federation starships

Yeffrey

Lieutenant Junior Grade
All hate for Star Trek Enterprise aside, why do you people think that the UFP decided to go with a design lineage that follows Earth Starfleet?

If the Federation is made up of many races that had their own designs (seen in Enterprise) why would the newly formed Federation council decide to forgo all the great technical aspects of all the other space faring races and make their starships primarily human inspired?

One of those things Ive thought about since watching all of Enterprise.

The way I think of it is that the 24th century Federation is made of varying branches of Starfleet; Earth branches (which use the primarily human crews), Vulcan branches (with the ring shaped design lineage), Andorian branches, etc.... Since everyone is a member of the UFP they can sign up to whatever branch they wish; humans can serve on the Andorian ships for instance. Its all a matter of individual preference for one's comrades.

Thoughts?
 
I think you've got the dynamic pretty well, Yeffrey. I see the Federation mostly as an analogy to the United Nations, where each member race has it's own military, like the Human's Starfleet, but it seems that the UFP's proverbial 'hands and feet' is Starfleet.
 
It could be said that Federation starships are fairly generic designs, though. Prior to ENT, it could have been said that the designs were supposed to be fairly neutral. If the DY-type vessels are any indication, Earth ships don't have saucer sections or warp nacelles...

After ENT, it could be that many designs were simply based off the NX-class because of a ship of that line played such a crucial role in unifying Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar...
 
All hate for Star Trek Enterprise aside, why do you people think that the UFP decided to go with a design lineage that follows Earth Starfleet?

If the Federation is made up of many races that had their own designs (seen in Enterprise) why would the newly formed Federation council decide to forgo all the great technical aspects of all the other space faring races and make their starships primarily human inspired?

Something of the external appearance of most later Starfleet ships resembles more the NX-01 than, say, some of the Vulcan designs from the ENT era, but it's quite a leap to say that "great technical aspects" of the other members aren't included in early Federation designs. We haven't actually seen any early Federation designs (aside from a glimpse at a model of what was intended to represent a Daedalus-class ship), and we don't know what technologies from Federation members are key to their internal workings, so the question is based on some unfounded assumptions.

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The way I think of it is that the 24th century Federation is made of varying branches of Starfleet; Earth branches (which use the primarily human crews), Vulcan branches (with the ring shaped design lineage), Andorian branches, etc.... Since everyone is a member of the UFP they can sign up to whatever branch they wish; humans can serve on the Andorian ships for instance. Its all a matter of individual preference for one's comrades.

I don't see much evidence at all that Starfleet is branched this way. Humans appear common in it, but not to the extent that I would think there is an "Earth branch." It would be a huge leap to think that Starfleet is divided this way between its member worlds just because extras without makeup are cheaper (we know there are lots of human-looking aliens in Star Trek also, which could account for lots of them) and the writing on signage is in English; these are television production reasons. Points against the idea:

-Even in fleets of hundreds of Starfleet ships with many different designs, we see the familiar classes of ship and notable design elements common to them

-The U.S.S. T'Kumbra is a Nebula-class starship, but operating with a predominantly Vulcan crew (and, obviously, bearing a Vulcan name).

-The Hera is also a Nebula-class starship
with a predominantly Vulcan crew, but her captain happens to be a human

-the Intrepid is a Constitution-class starship like the Enterprise
too, and also bears a name sourced from Earth, but has an all-Vulcan crew

-The Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet have been established in the canon as separate organizations, whereas the schema you propose would rather suggest they coexist with one as a subset of the other

-The idea that beings can and do choose primarily to serve with their own kind in a divided exploration and defense organization is kind of depressing and doesn't really seem to reflect the close ties and integration that I have always believed Trek was trying to suggest existed. Do you think this represents a majority viewpoint? Novels and other supporting works will, in my observation, tend to show a much greater percentage of non-human crew members. TAS added lots of them, too, when budget was less of an issue in depicting them. Technical works like the TNG Technical Manual and less official books too certainly don't depict our hero ships as purely or even primarily human in origin or in who they are intended to serve. If I remember correctly, fandom has long assigned heavy Vulcan influence to the design alterations to the Enterprise for Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

The NX-01 was made to have familiar Trek ship elements so it would be clearly recognizable to the public, but within the fiction, I don't think we should make too much of this. We're basically talking about paired engine pods set off from the body of the ship and a primary hull ranging somewhere from a sphere to a saucer to a cone; I don't really think this and some detailing are enough to point at such a ship and say nonhumans aren't involved. Clearly NX-01 is a breakthrough success in Earth's space program and many of the engineering principles applied to it were developed with little or no direct Vulcan involvement; perhaps something about the most basic elements of this configuration has turned out to be advantageous for the demands of Starfleet service, or is discovered to be so at some time within a century after the NX-01. The Earth technology may have turned out to be more adaptable to the contributions of other Federation members in some fundamental way. The annular warp drive which is present in some Vulcan ships is still seeing some (civilian) use centuries later, so we may assume it has differing strengths and weaknesses which call for its use in some circumstances and not others.

Yes, it's annoying when Janeway says something like "We're from Earth" when she has quite a few people who aren't standing right there on the bridge, but I imagine this is typically shorthand for the fact that Starfleet HQ is located there. The tensions still present between certain founding members at the dawn of the UFP and the diplomatic role seemingly played by humans in making this alliance happen don't make the choice of Earth to host Starfleet HQ much of a surprise.
 
we don't know what technologies from Federation members are key to their internal workings


So now I have this mental image of one race claiming credit for designing the floor, another race claiming credit for a wall, and all sort of other races claiming credit for simple mundane things in a starship. ;)
 
When I watched that one early Enterprise episode where they found the reptilian corpses in that adrift ship (one with the "bile tubes"), I thought the design of the cooridor looked more like the ship cooridors of the TOS movie era and TNG/DS9/VOY era than the ones on the NX-01. Perhaps those aliens joined the Federation between TOS and the first movie.
 
Yes, it's annoying when Janeway says something like "We're from Earth" when she has quite a few people who aren't standing right there on the bridge, but I imagine this is typically shorthand for the fact that Starfleet HQ is located there. The tensions still present between certain founding members at the dawn of the UFP and the diplomatic role seemingly played by humans in making this alliance happen don't make the choice of Earth to host Starfleet HQ much of a surprise.

What do you suppose the Captain of a predominately Vulcan crew or an Adorian crew on a Starfleet starship lost in the Delta Quadrant would say they were from? Even if they did have the odd Human, Bolian, Bajoran or other non Vulcan/Andorian on the ship would they still say they were from Earth, and have that as there ultimate goal, or would they give there own home planet as the origin and that as there destination?
 
Since it is a human (Archer) who plays such an important role in unifying the Federation founding members and it is on Earth where the Federation is forged it seems likely that the founding members agreed that a single military/exploratory entity needed to exist for the Federation and since they all trusted Earth and Humans thanks to Archer and the Enterprise it was agreed that Earth would be the home for this entity and thus Starfleet became it.
Do you serious believe the Andorian government would agree to have the Federation military/exploratory headquarters on Vulcan or vice versa? its logical to assume that the trust in Earth is the reason Starfleet became the headquarters of the Federation and since Starfleet already had specific ship designs these are the designs that ended up being attributed to Federation ships.
Also who is to say the other races didnt give their own 2 cents, the NX01 technically didnt have a secondary hull and was simply a saucer with warp nacelles attached, yet Andorian and Tellarite ships did have secondary hulls to a degree so its possible that the Andorians and Tellarites had a role to play in future starship designs, theres a huge difference in design from an NX01 (with no secondary hull) and a constitution class ship (with a secondary hull).

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Tellarite_warship
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Andorian_warship
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Enterprise_%28NX-01%29
 
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It's possible that humans are far more adventurous than other species—that their curiosity and spirit of wanderlust leads a much greater percentage of humans into Starfleet than is the case for most of the other UFP members. Since humans would be more comfortable with a design template drawn and evolving from their traditions, well ... the majority rules.

It may also be that the other member races thought integration of their disparate philosophies into a cohesive whole would be easier employing a less sophisticated basic design—one drawn from Earth's Starfleet, which at the Federation's outset lagged well behind Vulcan, Andor and Tellar so far as starship technology was concerned. Vulcans and Tellarites, in addition, might be disinclined to serve aboard a starship similar in appearance to that of a longtime foe.

In short, Earth may simply have "won out" because it's the least objectionable.
 
Yes, it's annoying when Janeway says something like "We're from Earth" when she has quite a few people who aren't standing right there on the bridge, but I imagine this is typically shorthand for the fact that Starfleet HQ is located there. The tensions still present between certain founding members at the dawn of the UFP and the diplomatic role seemingly played by humans in making this alliance happen don't make the choice of Earth to host Starfleet HQ much of a surprise.

What do you suppose the Captain of a predominately Vulcan crew or an Adorian crew on a Starfleet starship lost in the Delta Quadrant would say they were from? Even if they did have the odd Human, Bolian, Bajoran or other non Vulcan/Andorian on the ship would they still say they were from Earth, and have that as there ultimate goal, or would they give there own home planet as the origin and that as there destination?

Maybe something about the Federation? "We're trying to get back to the Federation"? Like, if I were lost on another continent and someone asked me where I was trying to get back to, I think I'd say "United States" and not a member of it like (random example) "Minnesota"—especially if I were traveling with other Americans who weren't aiming for Minnesota. I'm sure you catch my drift. IDIC

we don't know what technologies from Federation members are key to their internal workings


So now I have this mental image of one race claiming credit for designing the floor, another race claiming credit for a wall, and all sort of other races claiming credit for simple mundane things in a starship. ;)

The future of bureaucracy and the legacy of interspecies competition from before the days of the Federation :) I picture Tellarites walking around new starships ready to argue how the newest table designs on Tellar are vastly superior to the Vulcan-influenced compromise candidates that made it in.
 
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Clearly NX-01 is a breakthrough success in Earth's space program and many of the engineering principles applied to it were developed with little or no direct Vulcan involvement
...OTOH, perhaps the design is heavily influenced by input from other alien species, as Earth desperately attempts to best the Vulcans in their own game?

The idea of saucer hulls could come from, say, Rigelians. The fancy rigging of nacelles off the ship's centerplane might be a Tellarite invention. And while Andorian influences would not affect the looks of later Federation ships much, the very concept of shield generators could come from them. Earth's contribution to NX-01 and the subsequent lineages might be fairly minimal in the end.

Maybe something about the Federation? "We're trying to get back to the Federation"?
I'm sure a predominantly Tellarite ship would insist on going to Tellar, the leading world of the United Federation of Planets. (While admittedly first making a stop at the administrative center on that other planet named, wait, I do remember it, just give me a little time...)

Timo Saloniemi
 
All hate for Star Trek Enterprise aside, why do you people think that the UFP decided to go with a design lineage that follows Earth Starfleet?

Well we do see other influences creep in but it is quite possible that the Earth designs simply had the most growth potential. They became the standard because one design (probably the Constitution) was so far ahead of it's time the later breakthroughs (the Excelsior) were based on her. Then of course the Excelsior goes on to be the backbone of the fleet for a century...

I think this is an evolutionary thing that would still be underway at the time of TOS, it is quite possible there were ring-ship designs in service at the time of TOS, likely even.

If the Federation is made up of many races that had their own designs (seen in Enterprise) why would the newly formed Federation council decide to forgo all the great technical aspects of all the other space faring races and make their starships primarily human inspired?
There is no evidence they did before the 24th century and even then it is not conclusive - it is possible a few rarely seen Fed classes were developed by some Vulcan engineer who made them ring ships - and we never see many of them because inherently the saucer designs prove superior from Starfleets point of view.

The way I think of it is that the 24th century Federation is made of varying branches of Starfleet; Earth branches (which use the primarily human crews), Vulcan branches (with the ring shaped design lineage), Andorian branches, etc....
The problem with this is that you would not reap any of the benefits of a unified fleet this way, there would be no commonaslity of parts, and you would essentially have over a hundred seperate fleets, not very practical.

There is also no on-screen evidence that any organisations apart from local defense are seperate from Starfleet. It is possible that local defense ships in the Vulcan area have rings, but they contribute to a Starfleet using the designs we see on screen.

Since everyone is a member of the UFP they can sign up to whatever branch they wish; humans can serve on the Andorian ships for instance. Its all a matter of individual preference for one's comrades.
The problem here comes that on top of everything else you would have you also have to have each race implementing its own way of making other races comfortable with no shared designs to make life easier - the room for inefficiencies is pretty vast.
 
Since it is a human (Archer) who plays such an important role in unifying the Federation founding members and it is on Earth where the Federation is forged it seems likely that the founding members agreed that a single military/exploratory entity needed to exist for the Federation and since they all trusted Earth and Humans thanks to Archer and the Enterprise it was agreed that Earth would be the home for this entity and thus Starfleet became it.
This makes sense to me too....same reason why Earth becomes the Fed capital planet.

I've never bought into that theory that each UFP member has their own fleet. DS9 made that clear in the episode where they're talking about Bajor applying for membership---and mentioned that Sisko would be responsible for a smooth transition of integrating the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet.

Back to the topic--my theory is the new Federation decided that their new Starfleet vessels would integrate the best features from the various members. Earth's exterior ship design was chosen. Perhaps they used the Tellarite's engine specs...Andorian weaponry & shields...Denobulan medical technology...and Vulcan sensors & tractor beams.

As time goes on and more members join the Federation, their technology is added on. (For example, maybe the UFP never developed weather-controlling technology and instead got it when Risa joined? Who knows....)
 
The way I think of it is that the 24th century Federation is made of varying branches of Starfleet; Earth branches (which use the primarily human crews), Vulcan branches (with the ring shaped design lineage), Andorian branches, etc....

The problem with this is that you would not reap any of the benefits of a unified fleet this way, there would be no commonaslity of parts, and you would essentially have over a hundred seperate fleets, not very practical.


While this is true, sometimes politics trumps logistics. Lack of common weapons or equipment doesn't stop a UN peacekeeping force from being built out of units from different armies.

Star Trek IV and onward mostly portrayed the Federation as a centralised, American-style democracy, but "Journey To Babel" implied a much more UN-like organisation. Maybe that's something that changed over time, with the UFP beginning as a loose confederation of autonomous planets, and gradually becoming more cohesive. And even as late as TNG's "Gambit", Riker had to cooperate with a touchy Vulcan government, rather than just beaming down and doing his business.


I've never bought into that theory that each UFP member has their own fleet. DS9 made that clear in the episode where they're talking about Bajor applying for membership---and mentioned that Sisko would be responsible for a smooth transition of integrating the Bajoran Militia into Starfleet.


Again true, but what's true in the 2380s isn't necessarily true in the 2260s--or the 2160s.

I'm not saying it has to be this way, but it's one explanation for why Sarek is an ambassador rather than a senator or MP, or why the starships we've seen have had almost all-human crews. As I said awhile back, if you were a Vulcan wouldn't you want your own ship, instead of a chilly Human ship where the air's too thick and the gravity's too light?


Marian
 
Maybe something about the Federation? "We're trying to get back to the Federation"? Like, if I were lost on another continent and someone asked me where I was trying to get back to, I think I'd say "United States" and not a member of it like (random example) "Minnesota"—especially if I were traveling with other Americans who weren't aiming for Minnesota. I'm sure you catch my drift. IDIC
However, it would not be odd for someone representing the United States to say ``I'm from Washington'', taking the location of the capitol as representative for the whole nation. Or for a ship's commander to say she wanted to get back ``to Norfolk'' or ``to Pearl Harbor'' if those are its home ports.
 
SF appears to be main branch of the Federation when it comes to exploration/defense because it was Earths idea (Archers) to unify several races for better protection.
Taking into consideration how Earth was new on the block relatively neutral
when it came to internal affairs of other races (not to mention that Archer and his crew were able to help both Vulcans and Andorians on multiple occasions) it's not surprising why SF was chosen to be responsible for exploration/defense.

Also keep in mind that all SF ships incorporate technologies from other member races and it's possible that their designs were the most flexible when it came to using various technologies in just 1 of their ships.
Or humans were simply good at meshing various technologies to work in union.
:D

In any case, it's a shame we don't see large fleets of individual Federation races more often.
 
Adoption of Earth equipment might simply stem from the (supposed) fact that UFP Starfleet was founded just after Earth had had a big war. There might simply have been a surplus of Earth vessels available at the time, and when UFP SF decided to commonalize, they did so in a manner that required scrapping the least number of hulls. So the numbers favored Earth designs, assuming that those weren't too inferior in comparison with the local average.

From there on, it would be a matter of inertia. The newest class to be fielded would always have a degree of "backward compatibility" and commonality.

Timo Saloniemi
 
While this is true, sometimes politics trumps logistics. Lack of common weapons or equipment doesn't stop a UN peacekeeping force from being built out of units from different armies.

However forces genuinely built to fight together (your average UN peacekeeping force couldn't fight its way out of a paper bag) like NATO use common weapons, common ammunition and so on.

Star Trek IV and onward mostly portrayed the Federation as a centralised, American-style democracy, but "Journey To Babel" implied a much more UN-like organisation. Maybe that's something that changed over time, with the UFP beginning as a loose confederation of autonomous planets, and gradually becoming more cohesive.
Agreed totally and I said similar in my earlier posts in regards to Starfleet - there were probably Vulcan built "ring ships" in service as of TOS.

And even as late as TNG's "Gambit", Riker had to cooperate with a touchy Vulcan government, rather than just beaming down and doing his business.
Well to be fair this would be likely even on Earth - if a Starfleet ship came into orbit and started conducting random military operations on Earth without informing anyone the Captain would probably be in for an earful.

I'm not saying it has to be this way, but it's one explanation for why Sarek is an ambassador rather than a senator or MP, or why the starships we've seen have had almost all-human crews. As I said awhile back, if you were a Vulcan wouldn't you want your own ship, instead of a chilly Human ship where the air's too thick and the gravity's too light?
Well as I said in my post it is almost certain that Starfleet has a compromise policy on all their ships for common areas and crew quarters are all adaptable for all sorts of climatic conditions.
 
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