Spoilers Demons of the Punjab grade and discussion thread

[Jayson1]

I just see Spock and McCoy who like to show their love with each other with friendly insults with each other. Plus when you get down to it we are talking about the most effective character friendship in all of Trek history and up their in all tv history. "TOS" is all about Kirk,Spock and McCoy and how they play off each other. To point where often the stories play second fiddle to them bantering with each other. If that isn't good enough for modern tv then modern tv is worst for it because nobody captured the feeling of family with the characters like "TOS" did with the big 3.

Maybe you can do a less intense version of that dynamic which is basically watering it down and that might be effective to a a degree but for great drama you need to be real. You need characters that don't mence words with the people they shouldn't be mencing words with which is family and your friends. It's why Political Correctness might be good in real life because it makes people feel the need to be civil with each other but it's a huge problem with fiction. I don't see why anyone would ever want it in their tv shows or movies.

Jason

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Seems people are missing the fact that racists, sexists, homophobes, etc. Can all be very nice, kind, caring people. You can have racist friends who are wonderful people and even are kind and polite and have sincere had friendships with people of other races. It doesn't have to be people who commit horrible crimes or shout at others on public transport. But catch them at the right time, bring up the wrong subject and you'll regret you ever said anything, or they'll say something that's 'just a joke' but really isn't.

 

[Yminale]

Seems people are missing the fact that racists, sexists, homophobes, etc. Can all be very nice, kind, caring people. You can have racist friends who are wonderful people and even are kind and polite and have sincere had friendships with people of other races.

You do know that the whole I know <insert minority> or my friend is an <insert minority> is a form of deflection. If you hate people, you can ACT nice but you are not a nice person.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Doctor Who isn't living up to its past, something people have been saying since the second episode.

View attachment 6995

The funny thing here is that the review is not inaccurate. I own the An Unearthly Child arc on disc. I've watched the first episode many times and considered a classic. The rest of the arc set in the past was dreadful. So, the reviewer really was accurately calling it as he saw it. He had no way of knowing that the Daleks were right around the corner.

 

[Yminale]

I just see Spock and McCoy who like to show their love with each other with friendly insults with each other.

If Starfleet was a REAL military instead of a fantasy construct, McCoy would have been reprimanded if not booted out. In real life you don't act like a bigot in public

 

[Bob The Skutter]

You do know that the whole I know <insert minority> or my friend is an <insert minority> is a form of deflection. If you hate people, you can ACT nice but you are not a nice person.

It is and it's not. I know someone who is very anti-immigrant but has immigrant friends and says 'of course I don't mean you, you're a good one.' to their faces. My Great Auntie had a mixed race adopted daughter, loved her, and her daughter had a black boyfriend and she liked him, but was once in the car with them in Bradford making jokes about their being 'so many black people found here I can't tell if it's night or day.'

 

[Yminale]

It is and it's not. I know someone who is very anti-immigrant but has immigrant friends and says 'of course I don't mean you, you're a good one.' to their faces. My Great Auntie had a mixed race adopted daughter, loved her, and her daughter had a black boyfriend and she liked him, but was once in the car with them in Bradford making jokes about their being 'so many black people found here I can't tell if it's night or day.'

You are making excuses for these people. The fact that they compartmentalize their racism with actual reality shows how pathological they are. It's how they can claim victim-hood while victimizing others.

What you should be doing is calling out their BS.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

You are making excuses for these people. The fact that they compartmentalize their racism with actual reality shows how pathological they are. It's how they can claim victim-hood while victimizing others.

What you should be doing is calling out their BS.

Well the Auntie is dead, so no calling her out. And my point was McCoy is racist, just as these people are racist but seem to be, and given the right circumstances are, very nice, warm, kind people, except when they're not.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't really object to McCoy's behavior towards Spock because neither were real, I object to the writers who thought it was acceptable on a show where the central message was that we can travel the stars once we put aside our differences and work together. It's pretty much saying racism is terrible unless it's your friend and you try to pass it off as good-natured ribbing. Something that many fans still try to do today, fans who likely will never have to deal with "good-natured ribbing" from friends and co-workers in real life.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I don't really object to McCoy's behavior towards Spock because neither were real, I object to the writers who thought it was acceptable on a show where the central message was that we can travel the stars once we put aside our differences and work together. It's pretty much saying racism is terrible unless it's your friend and you try to pass it off as good-natured ribbing. Something that many fans still try to do today, fans who likely will never have to deal with "good-natured ribbing" from friends and co-workers in real life.

And Star Trek is full of sub-consious racism. Whether it's the Ferengi or the Klingons, or the 'slug in your belly' with Dax. Like all things, it is of its time and recognising it doesn't stop it being progressive in its time or so it being something I continue to enjoy overall.

 

[Jayson1]

If Starfleet was a REAL military instead of a fantasy construct, McCoy would have been reprimanded if not booted out. In real life you don't act like a bigot in public

But Starfleet isn't real and even then i'm not so sure. You would have to look at the context of situation. These are people and not robots so they are going to have take in account that people talk in more casual way with friends, even on duty than they would with others. You can't really function all that well if you got people walking on egg shells because of some zero tolerance policy that doesn't have some flexibility. People know or should know when abuse is happening as opposed to casual banter with friends.
A example of real racism was Kirk in "Balance of Terror" when he made the "Their is no room on the bridge for racism" sllapdown of the one guy who started to think Spock might be working with the Romulans. Also nobody has even responded to the fact that Spock's views on humans could be seen just as racist if you didn't really know who he was as a person.


Jason

 

[Jayson1]

I don't really object to McCoy's behavior towards Spock because neither were real, I object to the writers who thought it was acceptable on a show where the central message was that we can travel the stars once we put aside our differences and work together. It's pretty much saying racism is terrible unless it's your friend and you try to pass it off as good-natured ribbing. Something that many fans still try to do today, fans who likely will never have to deal with "good-natured ribbing" from friends and co-workers in real life.

I don't see that message. I see the message being that people can overcome their differences and be friends and care about each other despite those differences. The show does have some real issues with sexism but in regards to racism it's actually pretty advanced by 60's era tv. Also Spock/McCoy and Kirk are more than just workplace friends. They are a family.. Spock and McCoy aren't just two guys who share a cubicle but are part of each others lives in a very deep kind of way.

Jason

 

[Awesome Possum]

And Star Trek is full of sub-consious racism. Whether it's the Ferengi or the Klingons, or the 'slug in your belly' with Dax. Like all things, it is of its time and recognising it doesn't stop it being progressive in its time or so it being something I continue to enjoy overall.

It doesn't change what it was in the past, but all of the shows have aged poorly. Especially some of TNG's episodes like that season one episode where Tasha has to fight the planet of racist stereotypes or their failed attempt at dealing with LGBTQ issues.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't see that message. I see the message being that people can overcome their differences and be friends and care about each other despite those differences. The show does have some real issues with sexism but in regards to racism it's actually pretty advanced by 60's era tv. Also Spock/McCoy and Kirk are more than just workplace friends. They are a family.. Spock and McCoy aren't just two guys who share a cubicle but are part of each others lives in a very deep kind of way.

Jason

Making racist jokes at your friends is a shitty thing to do, I don't care what your excuse is or how much you care for them. If you think that your friend is fine with it, mostly likely they don't really consider you their friend.

 

[Yminale]

You can't really function all that well if you got people walking on egg shells because of some zero tolerance policy that doesn't have some flexibility.

The Military, Government offices and most corporations have a zero tolerance policy and they seem to function well.

People know or should know when abuse is happening as opposed to casual banter with friends.

People don't know or try to ignore so called "casual" racism. That's why racism is so hard to stamp out.

A example of real racism was Kirk in "Balance of Terror" when he made the "Their is no room on the bridge for racism" sllapdown of the one guy who started to think Spock might be working with the Romulans.

That's not racism but paranoia. In hindsight we know that both Klingons and Romulans infiltrated Starfleet.

Also nobody has even responded to the fact that Spock's views on humans could be seen just as racist if you didn't really know who he was as a person.

Ironically McCoy calls Spock on it all the time.

 

[Yminale]

Making racist jokes at your friends is a shitty thing to do, I don't care what your excuse is or how much you care for them. If you think that your friend is fine with it, mostly likely they don't really consider you their friend.

Or "they go along to get along" (aka racist Uncle Joe phenomenon).

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I used to call a friend out on it all the time. He'd make some crack about my soft PC sensibilities, then he married a woman from another country, moved away from his parents and has completely changed his tune.

 

[Jayson1]

Making racist jokes at your friends is a shitty thing to do, I don't care what your excuse is or how much you care for them. If you think that your friend is fine with it, mostly likely they don't really consider you their friend.

They don't see it as racist jokes because their is no real dislike between them. They see it as Blue Humor or "Breaking Balls" to take a phrase from another show. Me I wouldn't be much into it either but then again it doesn't really matter what I or you would think. Spock and McCoy clearly have a love for each other and enjoy the banter and back and forth. If that is how they like to share their feelings why is it wrong for anyone to tell them the way they treat each other is wrong. It's their life and their feelings.
To me the conflict was always very character oriented and never really went much into race and even when race is brought up it's only to inform on how they feel about each other and not all the other Vulcans and Humans out their. At most you might get a observation but they never went angry with them. Spock never hated humans because he thought they could be capable of doing bad thinks and McCoy never hated the Vulcan people because they weren't more human like with their emotions.

Jason

 

[Bob The Skutter]

They don't see it as racist jokes because their is no real dislike between them. They see it as Blue Humor or "Breaking Balls" to take a phrase from another show. Me I wouldn't be much into it either but then again it doesn't really matter what I or you would think. Spock and McCoy clearly have a love for each other and enjoy the banter and back and forth. If that is how they like to share their feelings why is it wrong for anyone to tell them the way they treat each other is wrong. It's their life and their feelings.
To me the conflict was always very character oriented and never really went much into race and even when race is brought up it's only to inform on how they feel about each other and not all the other Vulcans and Humans out their. At most you might get a observation but they never went angry with them. Spock never hated humans because he thought they could be capable of doing bad thinks and McCoy never hated the Vulcan people because they weren't more human like with their emotions.

Jason

I am on disability benefits. I'm used to people saying that we should cut social security payments, that people who get social security are scroungers, that people should work if they expect to receive social security. It still hurts when a friend echoes it, even if they say and believe "I don't mean you, I don't mean people who really need it." They don't hate me. They don't wish me any harm. But that's the thing, it's easy to believe something in the abstract. It's easy to say it doesn't apply to the people I know and yet still be saying and doing bigoted things.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They don't see it as racist jokes because their is no real dislike between them. They see it as Blue Humor or "Breaking Balls" to take a phrase from another show. Me I wouldn't be much into it either but then again it doesn't really matter what I or you would think. Spock and McCoy clearly have a love for each other and enjoy the banter and back and forth. If that is how they like to share their feelings why is it wrong for anyone to tell them the way they treat each other is wrong. It's their life and their feelings.
To me the conflict was always very character oriented and never really went much into race and even when race is brought up it's only to inform on how they feel about each other and not all the other Vulcans and Humans out their. At most you might get a observation but they never went angry with them. Spock never hated humans because he thought they could be capable of doing bad thinks and McCoy never hated the Vulcan people because they weren't more human like with their emotions.

Jason

Vulcans don't have feelings to hurt (Sort of).

If you try to be civil and politic, they tell you directly to stop wasting their time with idle small talk.

They want complete honesty, even if it is unkind.

If McCoy was joking about hating Spock, that insincerity would irk Spock much more than McCoy constantly sharing his Xenophobia, and McCoy would have been told to stop.

Honest hatred is valuable information.

Fake hatred is valueless information.