Defiant vs Jem'Hadar Super Ship
- Thread starter Photon
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The ablative armor was an add-on to the Defiant; when she did battle with the Lakota, Capt. Benteen mentioned that Starfleet didn't know the Defiant had ablative armor, so that leads us to believe that it's not a standard feature among Defiant class ships.
As for the quantum torpeodes, we already saw the Valiant fire them, so obviously she has them.
For starters, I hate Valiant and everything that episode stood for. These are recent graduates of Starfleet Academy and ar supposed to be the best right? So, that compares them to college graduates ready to enter the workplace. As a college student, I'm a bit offended that people my age are portrayed as so damn stupid in this episode. A bunch of kids commanded by an egotistical gloryhound that promotes his friends at his discretion (seriously, Nog an L.Commander???), takes stimulants because he rejects sleeping, and wants nothing more than to take pieces of a dead Jem'Hadar battleship back to the Federation for glory. What a headcase.
As for this thread, no offense to the OP but it's foolish to think that any Federation ship can beat this thing one on one. A Jem'Hadar battlecruiser is half the size of this thing, and they outclass every Federation starship. The only thing that could possible stand up to a Jem'Hadar Battlecruiser is a Sovereign or Prommy, but they were no where near the front lines.
Oh, and ablative hull armor is standard on Defiant class ships. It was a standard feature that made its way onto the Enterprise-E and USS Prometheus (its in all their design specs), so we can assume that most Starfleet vessels, especially the tactical vessels such as the Defiant would use this technology during a time of war.
As for this thread, no offense to the OP but it's foolish to think that any Federation ship can beat this thing one on one. A Jem'Hadar battlecruiser is half the size of this thing, and they outclass every Federation starship. The only thing that could possible stand up to a Jem'Hadar Battlecruiser is a Sovereign or Prommy, but they were no where near the front lines.
Oh, and ablative hull armor is standard on Defiant class ships. It was a standard feature that made its way onto the Enterprise-E and USS Prometheus (its in all their design specs), so we can assume that most Starfleet vessels, especially the tactical vessels such as the Defiant would use this technology during a time of war.
You're right, but then the burden of evidence relies on the canon to show that it became standard. It's easier to prove one over the other.
Again, where's the on-screen proof? Just because it's on a dedicated (and MUCH more advanced) ship like the Prometheus (which was stated in the show) doesn't automatically mean other ships have it. Going back to the Lakota, for instance, we know the ship was fitted with quantum torpedoes, but it's very odd that throughout all the extensive fleet battles in DS9, we never saw other Excelsior class ships using quantum torpedoes, despite Starfleet improving the offensive and defensive capabilities of most ships.
We also have to factor in that Benteen might not know much about the Defiant class overall. At the time of the episode, only one vessel of that design was shown to be operating, and she was a heavily customized former failed prototype that did all sorts of clandestine stuff. The average Starfleet skipper might not have been aware of just what about her was truly unique and what was merely exotic.
Also, to nitpick, there is no onscreen statement that the E-E would have had ablative armor. On the other hand, the TNG Tech Manual states that the E-D had ablative armor, a thin layer to be sure, against micrometeoroid impacts - so perhaps that sort of armor is standard for all starships, and it's just the thickness or strength of the stuff that makes a difference. That'd be rather analogous to how armor was viewed back then seagoing warships had it: the thin armor on cruisers wasn't usually worth mentioning, nor was the almost total lack of armor on destroyers, since only the heaviest armor on the battleships (and the odd lesser vessel, possibly analogous to our Defiant) was really relevant.
As for quantum torpedoes, it might be noted that those have never been shown fired from tubes that also fired photon torpedoes or probes. Perhaps they require very special launchers that are incompatible with other types of ammo, hence aren't trivially refitted onto existing designs. An Excelsior might have been an impractical platform for refits, if replacing the photon tubes with quantum ones left the ship completely without forward-pointing photon launchers, and without locations where such things could be easily installed. The Defiant and the Sovereign both appeared to have separate photon launchers for forward work, in addition to the dedicated quantum tubes.
Timo Saloniemi
Also, to nitpick, there is no onscreen statement that the E-E would have had ablative armor. On the other hand, the TNG Tech Manual states that the E-D had ablative armor, a thin layer to be sure, against micrometeoroid impacts - so perhaps that sort of armor is standard for all starships, and it's just the thickness or strength of the stuff that makes a difference. That'd be rather analogous to how armor was viewed back then seagoing warships had it: the thin armor on cruisers wasn't usually worth mentioning, nor was the almost total lack of armor on destroyers, since only the heaviest armor on the battleships (and the odd lesser vessel, possibly analogous to our Defiant) was really relevant.
As for quantum torpedoes, it might be noted that those have never been shown fired from tubes that also fired photon torpedoes or probes. Perhaps they require very special launchers that are incompatible with other types of ammo, hence aren't trivially refitted onto existing designs. An Excelsior might have been an impractical platform for refits, if replacing the photon tubes with quantum ones left the ship completely without forward-pointing photon launchers, and without locations where such things could be easily installed. The Defiant and the Sovereign both appeared to have separate photon launchers for forward work, in addition to the dedicated quantum tubes.
Timo Saloniemi
That's fair license for storytelling and good constructive criticism. If one veteran had been left of the experienced crew after a freak accident [O'Brien?], implausible as it may have seemed, we could have had "A Damn the Defiant" type of episode with boys and girls becoming adults in a crisis minus the Jemm; super battleship B story.
Trying to do the job of the writers for them, we could argue that the bridge took a hit. After all, that's where all the top officers are always crammed during battles, according to standard Starfleet doctrine - even the Chief Engineer and the Chief Medical Officer. Too bad that we saw that the bridge was intact...
Or we could say that the experienced officers and instructors sensibly ordered evacuation of the ship, with just the Captain remaining behind to see that it was done. And then the Jem'Hadar fired on the evacuation pods... Most of the veterans died, but the Captain managed to halt the evacuation, and dealt with the threat in some other way, saving the lives of those trainees who hadn't ejected yet, but losing his own in the process.
We already sort of had the "shipful of children" situation in ST2:TWoK, and Jake and Nog had also already been stranded aboard a spacecraft for a growing-up scene in "Jem'Hadar". Doesn't mean such an episode couldn't still have been done, but we did get to see the basic elements already.
Timo Saloniemi
Or we could say that the experienced officers and instructors sensibly ordered evacuation of the ship, with just the Captain remaining behind to see that it was done. And then the Jem'Hadar fired on the evacuation pods... Most of the veterans died, but the Captain managed to halt the evacuation, and dealt with the threat in some other way, saving the lives of those trainees who hadn't ejected yet, but losing his own in the process.
We already sort of had the "shipful of children" situation in ST2:TWoK, and Jake and Nog had also already been stranded aboard a spacecraft for a growing-up scene in "Jem'Hadar". Doesn't mean such an episode couldn't still have been done, but we did get to see the basic elements already.
Timo Saloniemi
I believe that Defiant was occasionally shown launching photon torpedoes from the same launchers as the quantum torpedoes. On the other hand, when Voyager encountered the Cardassian dreadnought, they planned to salvage its quantum torpedoes, which would have required modificiations to be fired from a Federation launcher, though it's not clear whether this was a photon/quantum difference or a Federation/Cardassian difference.
But she wasn't. There was a single photon torpedo fired from a mysterious aft tube in "Paradise Lost", and dialogue to the effect that aft photon torpedoes were being fired in "Way of the Warrior". And then there was a tube in the middle of the bow deflector, sometimes seen firing probes, that might have fired forward photons. But the weapons firing from the cheeks of the main hull were always either identified as quantums, or then corresponded to the distinct white-hot look rather than being of the red or yellow type associated with photons.
Good point, although I'd favor the latter explanation to stay self-consistent.
I'd also think the Cardassians had cleared that particular hurdle already: they don't strike me as the sort of people who could indigenously come up with the quantum torp technology before the Federation introduced that in its own vessels. Perhaps the Cardassians bought the quantums from the Ferengi, like they purchased Quark's advanced holographic services for Terok Nor? And perhaps interfacing was part of the deal (for a hefty extra payment, of course).
Timo Saloniemi
Of course you do! There were trained, they must've run simulations- for all we know, they graduated before Nog, since he was so familiar with RS.
And still- say you're a parent with a good kid who studies hard, doesn't get in trouble, gets straight As, is obedient etc. etc. Lets say he's around 16-17 and learning how to drive, maybe has his beginners or the equivalent- are you going to be the parent that has to hide the keys when not in use? No. Are you going to expect that if you die, your kid is going to take your car, and try to take out a tank with it? Probably not...
And thats what it was, a silly ship, probably with old intel, going against a super ship when the Feds had a hard time going against regular Dominion fighters.
But it *is* possible that it can happen, as young brats today steal cars, its conceivable that in the 24th century, young brats will steal ships and make nuisances of themselves.
Hey now, Janeway survived! So no, not all the senior staff died that day.
Also weird: Tuvok survived, but while on another ship.
Try and steal a submarine to go hunting Yemeni pirates...........
Considering the number of times Janeway died and refuse to be stopped by it, I'm tempted to believe the woman's immortal
I can't really give you an answer for Tuvok, but we never heard of anyone dying on Chakotay's ship. Maybe everyone was sat down, and so survived. With the exception of Stadi, I imagine the chief engineer and the CMO were both stood up when they got nullified, and we all saw Cavit's curious not-overacted-in-the-slightest death
There's a whole other issue now of ships with Betazoid females at the helm having suspiciously bad luck, but I won't get into that.
Hmm, this was completely off topic. I now return you to regular viewing...
No it didn't. That was REAL WORLD. Don't ever mix curious teenagers and model rockets! [my hobby]
