Defiant vs Galaxy

[cwl]

the conclusion on the thread here

http://forums.spacebattles.com/archive/index.php/t-82413.html

is that the Defiant wins hands down.

I almost fell off my seat when I heard it but what do you guys think?

 

[Plecostomus]

the conclusion on the thread here

http://forums.spacebattles.com/archive/index.php/t-82413.html

is that the Defiant wins hands down.

I almost fell off my seat when I heard it but what do you guys think?

Depends on the writer. I can make anything beat anything else with my imagination. Depends on the need of the plot and all that.

 

[miraclefan]

the conclusion on the thread here

http://forums.spacebattles.com/archive/index.php/t-82413.html

is that the Defiant wins hands down.

I almost fell off my seat when I heard it but what do you guys think?

Depends on the writer. I can make anything beat anything else with my imagination. Depends on the need of the plot and all that.

That's pretty much how it goes. Anybody remember the U.S.S.BOZEMAN? (with Frasier Crane in command)that ship ripped apart the ENT-D's warp Nacelle destroying the ship! and the bozeman was a soyuz class!

 

[cwl]

the Defiant was pretty much equal to an Excelsior-refit - yet these people think a tiny ship that is the Defiant can take out starfleets biggest starship?

 

[Mr. B]

I can see it going either way depending on who has the better captain and helmsman. The defiant class is a smaller target and much more maneuverable but overcoming a huge galaxy class ship's shields and phaser banks would be no small task.

 

[Plecostomus]

the conclusion on the thread here

http://forums.spacebattles.com/archive/index.php/t-82413.html

is that the Defiant wins hands down.

I almost fell off my seat when I heard it but what do you guys think?

Depends on the writer. I can make anything beat anything else with my imagination. Depends on the need of the plot and all that.

That's pretty much how it goes. Anybody remember the U.S.S.BOZEMAN? (with Frasier Crane in command)that ship ripped apart the ENT-D's warp Nacelle destroying the ship! and the bozeman was a soyuz class!

Based off the Ablative Miranda class, the most frangible, fraggable and combusted ship ever designed. That collision transferred enormous amounts of OMG SUCK to the Enterprise D resulting in a huge explosion.


But seriously, we're talking two enormous masses moving at .25c whacking into each other... do the momentum/transfer of forces calculations and report back to me.

Frankly I think it should have done MORE damage.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The JJPrise can whip both their asses.

 

[Kross]

the Defiant was pretty much equal to an Excelsior-refit - yet these people think a tiny ship that is the Defiant can take out starfleets biggest starship?

To be fair, both the Defiant and the Lakota were holding back. I mean, the Captain of the latter balked at the idea of using quantum torpedoes against the former.

But yeah, the idea that the Defiant could take out a Galaxy is kind of hard to believe. A swarm maybe.

 

[Jono]

the Defiant was pretty much equal to an Excelsior-refit - yet these people think a tiny ship that is the Defiant can take out starfleets biggest starship?

To be fair, both the Defiant and the Lakota were holding back. I mean, the Captain of the latter balked at the idea of using quantum torpedoes against the former.

But yeah, the idea that the Defiant could take out a Galaxy is kind of hard to believe. A swarm maybe.

We saw a 90 yo BoP take close close to taking out the E-D...so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the NX-01 appear and defeat both.

 

[miraclefan]

We saw a 90 yo BoP take close close to taking out the E-D...so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the NX-01 appear and defeat both.

You know, we probably would have seen just that if ENT had a fifth season!

 

[CaptainStoner]

Well, if we take it a step further: the Defiant with Sisko's crew vs. Ent-D with Picard's crew - with a coin toss for Worf I suppose
I think that Worf himself might be the deciding factor in that battle.

But the question at hand, these ships with crews that cancel each other out: that would come down to mathematics + random numbers. Being an old D&D'er, I can say you never really know what's going to go down. Once in a while that goblin accidentally flings his sword and slashes out the paladin's eyes. Hilarity, and a dead paladin, ensue.

 

[miraclefan]

Well, if we take it a step further: the Defiant with Sisko's crew vs. Ent-D with Picard's crew - with a coin toss for Worf I suppose
I think that Worf himself might be the deciding factor in that battle.

But the question at hand, these ships with crews that cancel each other out: that would come down to mathematics + random numbers. Being an old D&D'er, I can say you never really know what's going to go down. Once in a while that goblin accidentally flings his sword and slashes out the paladin's eyes. Hilarity, and a dead paladin, ensue.

I bet you were a riot at parties!

 

[Jono]

the Defiant was pretty much equal to an Excelsior-refit - yet these people think a tiny ship that is the Defiant can take out starfleets biggest starship?

Mirror Defiant just about defeated a "super"-Negh'var on its own. As Yoda would say...size matters not.

We saw a 90 yo BoP take close close to taking out the E-D...so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the NX-01 appear and defeat both.

You know, we probably would have seen just that if ENT had a fifth season!

 

[miraclefan]

^ You laugh becuse it's TRUE!

 

[Cyke101]

I can see it going either way depending on who has the better captain and helmsman. The defiant class is a smaller target and much more maneuverable but overcoming a huge galaxy class ship's shields and phaser banks would be no small task.

To add to your point about the Galaxy's phaser arrays, I want to point out that even though the Lakota held back, she still had a 100% hit count on the Defiant (at least from what we saw onscreen). Give a ship the advantage of a phaser array (as opposed to fixed phaser banks and turrets) and there's really no place for the Defiant to dodge anymore.

 

[SilentP]

To add to your point about the Galaxy's phaser arrays, I want to point out that even though the Lakota held back, she still had a 100% hit count on the Defiant (at least from what we saw onscreen). Give a ship the advantage of a phaser array (as opposed to fixed phaser banks and turrets) and there's really no place for the Defiant to dodge anymore.

A minor aside: Excelsior classes have phaser arrays for definite? Would make sense, but the ships shots I've seen (albeit havent seen them recently) never suggested it, but it's been a while since I've seen the Defiant vs Lakota scene.

Any on phaser arrays, they would give the using ship a major advantage, but I'd say on a Galaxy there are still blindspots that could be taken advantage of for momentary dodging. I would have suggested snuggling between the warp nacelles, but then I remembered that you'd be smack bang in front of the Galaxy's aft torpedo launcher

I'd suppose it would be a case of how aggresive and close the Defiant would fly to the Galaxy. To use an example from Star Trek Legacy (ok, not exactly canon, but at least you've not got plot armour) the only way for a Defiant to beat some larger ships by itself is to hover very close to them so they cant aim at you. Oddly enough the only late-TNG battleship I found this to work against was, oddly enough the Negh'Var.

 

[Jono]

I can see it going either way depending on who has the better captain and helmsman. The defiant class is a smaller target and much more maneuverable but overcoming a huge galaxy class ship's shields and phaser banks would be no small task.

To add to your point about the Galaxy's phaser arrays, I want to point out that even though the Lakota held back, she still had a 100% hit count on the Defiant (at least from what we saw onscreen). Give a ship the advantage of a phaser array (as opposed to fixed phaser banks and turrets) and there's really no place for the Defiant to dodge anymore.

I guess the trade off in the case of the Defiant is that its phaser are meant to be more powerful. It let the Lakota hit it 5 times before it fought back and we saw it miss maybe 1/5-1/3 of the time yet in the end it was the Defiant that needed just one more hit to win.

The Defiant's shields are also pretty powerful. It was (amazingly) the only ship in the First Battle of Chin'toka that was hit multiple times by the OWP yet suffered no external damage. In the same battle we saw a OWP immediately pierce the shields of a Galaxy class. Then even without shields the ship seemed to be the last ship to explode in the second battle of Chin'toka. If Starfleet could replicate these "plot" shields and hull on all Defiants a Galaxy wouldn't stand a chance!

 

[cwl]

well in the Dominion War big fleet battles the VFX guys didnt put shields in- too time consuming & expensive.

also you must take hero factor into account when watching DS9.

 

[Cyke101]

To add to your point about the Galaxy's phaser arrays, I want to point out that even though the Lakota held back, she still had a 100% hit count on the Defiant (at least from what we saw onscreen). Give a ship the advantage of a phaser array (as opposed to fixed phaser banks and turrets) and there's really no place for the Defiant to dodge anymore.

A minor aside: Excelsior classes have phaser arrays for definite? Would make sense, but the ships shots I've seen (albeit havent seen them recently) never suggested it, but it's been a while since I've seen the Defiant vs Lakota scene.

Any on phaser arrays, they would give the using ship a major advantage, but I'd say on a Galaxy there are still blindspots that could be taken advantage of for momentary dodging. I would have suggested snuggling between the warp nacelles, but then I remembered that you'd be smack bang in front of the Galaxy's aft torpedo launcher .

We've never seen older pre-Ambassador class ships outfitted with phaser array strips, though that's not to say it's impossible. I remember reading somewhere that the invention of the phaser array gave Starfleet a pretty big tactical edge on Romulan ships and I imagine that has to do with the lack of blind spots.

And hiding in front of a torpedo launcher is never a good idea

I can see it going either way depending on who has the better captain and helmsman. The defiant class is a smaller target and much more maneuverable but overcoming a huge galaxy class ship's shields and phaser banks would be no small task.

To add to your point about the Galaxy's phaser arrays, I want to point out that even though the Lakota held back, she still had a 100% hit count on the Defiant (at least from what we saw onscreen). Give a ship the advantage of a phaser array (as opposed to fixed phaser banks and turrets) and there's really no place for the Defiant to dodge anymore.

I guess the trade off in the case of the Defiant is that its phaser are meant to be more powerful. It let the Lakota hit it 5 times before it fought back and we saw it miss maybe 1/5-1/3 of the time yet in the end it was the Defiant that needed just one more hit to win.

I suppose I agree that the Defiant would probably have a more powerful primary weapon to offset some of these disadvantages, but the Lakota needed just one quantum torpedo to finish them off as well. The dialogue implies that Benteen hadn't used thus far, and if the Lakota relied on just phasers for much of the battle, that's a pretty good showing for those upgrades.

(Also, that the Lakota stood down when she needed one torpedo spoke volumes of at least the dramatic impact of the story. It might even be the climax, as without the Lakota and the loyalty of her crew, Leyton was screwed. I just thought that was neat to mention.)

 

[Jono]

^



I'll admit this is a bit pedantic but the dialogue doesn't say that the Defiant only needed one more hit. Dax says that the Defiant's shields are almost gone and some damage report and Kira then says the Lakota is in worse shape and one more hit will destroy the ship. Benteen calls Leyton and indicates that she can't stop/disable the Defiant and Leyton then says to do whatever it takes including using quantum torpedoes and that the orders are now to destroy the Defiant.

So my take on those scenes is that the Lakota was beaten and Benteen knew it, so she called home, she gets orders to keep going anyway and she stops partly as she doesn't want to kill the Defiant's crew but she also doesn't want to sarcrifice her crew for Leyton having seen his ruthless side.

The Lakota still did a very good job and maybe might have won if not for the Defiants sneaky ablative armour upgrades, which came as a surprise to Benteen. Obviously Leyton must have believed that the Lakota could stop the Defiant or he wouldn't have sent her to disable her. So maybe a Lakota upgraded Excelsior is superior to a Defiant without ablative armour. For this thread then the question would be would the Lakota beat a Galaxy?

Pity they didn't use a Galaxy class in the episode as it would have been very useful for this thread, though the outcome would have still been fight to standstill, no one destroys the other ship, coup failed.